unSeminary Podcast

Rich Birch

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CHRISTIANITY
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stuff you wish they taught in seminary.

3D AGO

Unshakable Faith in a Shifting Culture: Helping People Stay Rooted with Aaron Graham

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Aaron Graham, lead pastor of The District Church, a diverse and growing congregation in the heart of Washington, D.C. Founded in 2010 just a few miles from the White House, the church has become known for its global diversity—with people from more than 80 nations represented—and its commitment to living out the gospel for the good of the city. Are you noticing both spiritual curiosity and spiritual drift among people in your community? Wondering how to disciple people faithfully in a culture that increasingly pushes back against historic Christian orthodoxy? In this conversation, Aaron shares insights from his ministry context in D.C. and his new book Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies, offering practical ways churches can respond to cultural pressure while forming resilient disciples from the next generation. A generation leaning in—and drifting away. // Aaron observes a striking tension among young adults today: some are pursuing faith with new seriousness, while others are quietly drifting away. Cities like Washington, D.C., attract highly educated young professionals who want to make a difference in the world through public service. Many are motivated by compassion and a desire to serve others, but they also face cultural pressures that can slowly reshape their beliefs. In Aaron’s experience, this environment creates both incredible opportunities for ministry and real challenges in maintaining historic Christian faith. Some people are exploring spiritual questions deeply, while others disengage from church entirely through gradual spiritual drift. Understanding doubt, deconstruction, and denial. // Aaron encourages church leaders to distinguish between three different spiritual responses: doubt, deconstruction, and denial. Doubt is a natural part of faith—it involves uncertainty and questions that can ultimately strengthen belief when handled within a supportive community. Deconstruction, however, goes further by dismantling previously held beliefs. While some deconstruction may be necessary—especially when people have experienced unhealthy theology or spiritual abuse—it becomes dangerous when it happens in isolation without reconstructing a healthier biblical foundation. Denial is the final stage, where a person actively rejects core Christian beliefs. Recognizing these distinctions helps pastors respond with wisdom and compassion rather than assuming everyone wrestling with faith is in the same place. Creating space for honest questions. // One practical way The District Church engages doubt is through a summer series called “This Is My Story.” During this series, church members share short testimonies about their biggest spiritual questions and how God met them through those struggles and doubts. These stories normalize honest questions while showing that faith can deepen through wrestling with difficult issues. Instead of centering doubt itself, the church highlights the journey from questioning to deeper trust in God. This approach has been especially meaningful for newcomers, helping them see that the church is a place where people can wrestle honestly with faith while still moving toward spiritual maturity. Resisting the pull of cultural lies. // Aaron’s book identifies several cultural narratives that quietly reshape Christian belief. One example is what he calls the “selective Christian”—someone who edits Scripture to match personal preferences or cultural expectations. When believers accept only the parts of the Bible that feel comfortable, the authority of Scripture slowly erodes. Over time, this selective approach strips the gospel of its transformative power. Aaron emphasizes that discipleship must include serious engagement with the whole Bible, even the passages that challenge modern assumptions. Returning to deep Bible engagement. // One of the most effective ways Aaron addresses cultural pressure is by encouraging consistent Bible engagement within the church. Through reading plans, group discussions, and teaching that emphasizes submission to Scripture rather than simply learning about it, believers begin to develop a more holistic faith. Interestingly, Aaron notes that people who deeply engage Scripture often become both more morally conservative and more socially liberal with deeper compassion toward others. Instead of fitting into political categories, they develop a kingdom perspective shaped by the teachings of Jesus. Holding together justice and biblical conviction. // Throughout his ministry, Aaron has worked extensively in justice initiatives, advocating for the poor and vulnerable. However, he has also seen many leaders abandon historic Christian beliefs while pursuing social justice causes. This experience convinced him that justice and biblical orthodoxy must remain connected. True justice flows naturally from a high view of Scripture and the lordship of Christ. When churches separate the two, they risk losing both their theological foundation and their long-term spiritual influence. To learn more about Aaron Graham’s book Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies, visit aarongrahamdc.com, where you can find resources, curriculum, and links to purchase the book. Plus, check out District Church at districtchurch.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited that you have decided to tune in today. I know you got a lot going on this week and the fact that you would turn us on is just incredible. So we want to honor you for that. Thanks for doing that. Rich Birch — Today, we’re going to talk about some stuff that I know is applicable to all of us. It It’s the kind of conversation that we’re we’re wrestling with in all of our churches. And we also have a repeat guest, which you know does not happen that often at unSeminary. And you know when we have repeat guests, it means I really want you to hear them and hear what they have to say out. Rich Birch — Today we’re honored to have Aaron Graham with us. He is the lead pastor of of District Church. It was founded in 2010 in Washington, D.C. It’s a Christ-centered, culture-defining church. for transplants and natives. The church was born from a dream about what it would look like for a church to be, or to seek the peace of the city and to exist for the sake of Christ and for the good of the city.Rich Birch — So we’re really excited to have Aaron with us today. Aaron, welcome back to the podcast after a couple of years, but glad to you glad you decided to come back on. Appreciate that.Aaron Graham — Thanks, Rich, for having me and love what you guys are doing and how you’re practically helping church leaders like myself address problems we’re facing in our organizations and culture cultural contexts. Rich Birch — Kind of you to say that. Give us a bit of the District story for folks that, you know, my mom listens to every episode, but not everyone listens to every episode. But kind of to give us a bit of the District story and and talk a little bit about how you intersect with all of that.Aaron Graham — Yeah, we launched 15 years ago right in the heart of DC. We meet two miles north of the White House, and made up of mostly young adults becoming more intergenerational. But one of the things we’ve become known for is just our diversity. So there’s over 80 nations represented in the church. Last night at the newcomers dinner, there were 14 nations represented… Rich Birch — Wow.Aaron Graham — …and so just in that small little dinner. So that’s a real privilege we have of of doing that. We’re a church of life groups and just love what we’re doing right here in the heart of DC.Rich Birch — So good. I once heard a leader say that, you know, DC is full of young leaders, young people like, and, you know, the the whole thing that, you know, the main business will call it in DC is all run on the back of, you know, 20s and 30s who are making a huge difference. What have you noti

39 min
MAY 7

When Your People Are Discipled More by Cable News Than by Scripture with Derwin L. Gray

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Dr. Derwin L. Gray, co-founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church. Since launching in 2010, Transformation Church has become a multi-ethnic, multi-generational movement impacting thousands locally and globally. In this conversation, Derwin tackles one of the most pressing—and often avoided—questions facing church leaders today: what are we actually multiplying? Are we forming disciples of Jesus—or unintentionally shaping people more through culture, politics, and media than through the gospel? Derwin challenges leaders to examine the deeper currents shaping their churches and to recover a bold, Christ-centered vision for discipleship. What are we actually multiplying? // Derwin raises a provocative concern: many churches are focused on growth, expansion, and multiplication—but not always clear on what is being multiplied. Are we producing disciples rooted in the gospel, or consumers attracted to experiences? He warns that without intentional focus, churches can unintentionally replicate shallow faith, cultural Christianity, or even ideological distortion. The goal of multiplication must not simply be more campuses or larger attendance, but deeper, more faithful discipleship. A discipleship crisis beneath the surface. // The issue isn’t that churches lack discipleship. It’s that many people are being discipled by the wrong influences. Social media, political ideologies, and cultural narratives are shaping beliefs and behaviors, often more powerfully than Scripture. This creates a “wrong discipleship” problem, where people identify as Christians but reflect values that are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus. The challenge for leaders is to re-center discipleship around Christ, ensuring that people are being formed by the gospel rather than the surrounding culture. The danger of ideological captivity. // Derwin speaks candidly about the ways the church can become entangled in political ideologies—whether on the right or the left. He specifically critiques the rise of Christian nationalism, defining it as the fusion of the church’s identity with the identity of a nation-state. This, he argues, distorts the gospel by elevating political allegiance above allegiance to Christ. At the same time, he acknowledges the influence of secular progressivism. Both extremes, in different ways, can pull believers away from the centrality of Jesus. The call is not to disengage from society, but to engage from a distinctly gospel-centered perspective. Recovering a gospel-shaped identity. // At the heart of Derwin’s message is a call to rediscover what it means to be shaped by the gospel. The good news of Jesus is not merely about individual salvation—it creates a new family across ethnic, cultural, and social lines. This vision is central to Transformation Church’s identity as a multi-ethnic community. Derwin emphasizes that the gospel reconciles not only vertically (between people and God), but horizontally (between people and one another). When churches lose this vision, they lose their witness in a divided world. Courageous and compassionate leadership. // Leading in this cultural moment requires what Derwin calls “courageous compassion.” Pastors must be willing to speak truth clearly while loving people deeply. This means addressing difficult issues without fear of losing people, while also avoiding harsh or divisive rhetoric. Derwin acknowledges that this approach can lead to criticism from multiple sides, but he emphasizes that faithfulness to Christ must take priority over maintaining comfort or approval. Practical steps for leaders. // For pastors who feel their churches have been shaped more by culture than by Christ, Derwin offers simple but powerful starting points: pray, repent, and refocus on the gospel. He encourages leaders to equip themselves through study and to guide their teams in rediscovering a biblical framework for discipleship. Most importantly, leaders must model what they teach, demonstrating lives rooted in Christ rather than captured by cultural narratives. A renewed vision for the church. // Ultimately, Derwin calls the church back to its prophetic voice. The church is not meant to mirror the divisions of the world but to offer a compelling alternative: a community shaped by love, unity, and truth. When the church remains rooted in Jesus, it becomes a powerful witness to a watching world. To learn more about Transformation Church and Dr. Derwin L. Gray, his teaching, and resources, visit transformationchurch.tc and derwinlgray.com. Plus, pre-order his book, It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, so glad that you decided to tune in to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to this. I had a fragment of a conversation with a dear friend at the Exponential Conference and I want to have more of that today with you listening in. And this is a conversation that I know is impacting people. I think 100% of our church is in the country today. It’s something that we all are seeing. It’s impacting us. We’ve got to be thinking about this. Rich Birch — Honored to have Dr. Derwin Gray with us, incredible leader from Transformation Church. He and his wife, Vicki, co-founded the church in 2010. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational, mission-shaped community community with two locations in South Carolina, as well as Church Online. He’s an award-winning author of multiple books. He’s been on the podcast in the past and is one of the people who, he’s called me out on the podcast before, and I have taken those lessons with me. And so I’m I’m hoping that happens with you today. Derwin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Hey, man, thank you. So good to be with you.Rich Birch — No, it’s it’s honest. You know, been multiple times you’ve been on the show and I I’ve walked away being like, man, okay, Derwin just, he’s just pushed me and and got me to think different, which I really appreciate that. So for folks that don’t know about Transformation, kind of tell us a little bit about the church and give us the context you’re in, that sort of thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So ah my wife and I co-planted Transformation Church in 2010 in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. And so neither my wife and nor I grew up in church, and both of us came to faith in our mid to late 20s, and primarily through people at work. There was a woman at my wife’s job who shared Christ with her. I had a teammate named Steve Grant, with the Indianapolis Colts, where I played in the NFL. We called him the naked preacher because after practice, he’d dry off, take a shower, wrap a towel around his waist, and he’d share the gospel. And over five years, I came to faith. My wife came to faith before me. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And all we knew was this. If Jesus is this incredible, this forgiving, this gracious, this is the greatest news there is in the world. And so we didn’t know what words like evangelism and discipleship meant. All we knew was this. I want to know him. I want to make him known. I want to know his word.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so that was in 1997, 1998. We moved to Charlotte, North Carolina to play for the Carolina Panthers, and I got injured. And so all I could do was read my Bible, rehab my knee. And the following year, both my wife and I said, you know what? I think my NFL time is done.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — What are we going to do? We don’t know. So I got an invitation to speak at a youth event to share my testimony. And I said, well, what is that? They were like, a testimony is where you share your story of how you met Christ and what what took place. So I did that. People started calling me.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And in 1999, other Christians says, you guys need a nonprofit organization. You know, we’re like, what does that mean? So we started a ministry called One Heart at a Time. I would travel and speak. She would organize everything. We served at our church. Well, the longer we did that, we saw incredible fruit, but we also saw that wherever I would preach, it was ethnically segregated. It was it was really weird, right?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’

36 min
APR 30

From Data to Discipleship: The Four Cs Every Church Needs with Ronee de Leon

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Ronee de Leon, Executive Director of Partner Church Success at TouchPoint Software. With nearly two decades of ministry experience and now serving churches across the country, Ronee brings a unique perspective at the intersection of systems, strategy, and shepherding. Are you relying on attendance and giving numbers to understand your church? Wondering how to actually “see” your people as your church grows more complex? Ronee shares a practical framework for turning data into meaningful ministry action. You can’t shepherd what you can’t see. // One of the biggest challenges Ronee sees across churches is a lack of visibility. While most churches are passionate about reaching people, many rely on high-level metrics—attendance and giving—that only tell part of the story. As churches grow (especially beyond 300 people), intuitive leadership alone is no longer enough. Leaders can’t be in every room, and without deeper insight, they miss critical moments in people’s lives. The result is a gap between what leaders think is happening and what’s actually happening in people’s spiritual journeys. From data to discipleship. // Ronee emphasizes that data itself is not the goal. Rather, discipleship is. The opportunity for churches today is to transform raw data into actionable insight that helps people take meaningful next steps. Instead of just knowing how many people are in groups, leaders should be asking deeper questions: Who is still engaged three weeks in? Who dropped off halfway through? What patterns are emerging in people’s participation? These insights reveal where discipleship is thriving and where it’s stalling. The four stages of data-driven discipleship. // To help churches think clearly about this process, Ronee outlines a simple framework: conviction, collection, clarity, and care. Conviction asks whether leaders truly believe data collection matters enough to prioritize it. Collection focuses on consistently gathering meaningful data, not just sporadically. Clarity is the ability to interpret that data, moving from information to insight. And finally, care is where action happens – using those insights to connect with people and shepherd them effectively. Every church, she notes, is somewhere along this progression. Where most churches get stuck. // Many churches struggle in the gap between collection and clarity. They gather data but don’t translate it into meaningful action. Data becomes a warehouse rather than a tool. The shift happens when leaders move from asking “What happened?” to “What does this mean and what should we do next?” This requires intentional conversations, regular review rhythms, and a willingness to engage with the data rather than ignore it. Drifting is the key moment to watch. // One of the most important indicators Ronee highlights is disengagement. When people begin to drift—missing groups, serving less, or disengaging from community—it often signals deeper issues. Behind that drift could be doubt, divorce, depression, diagnosis, or financial stress. Without visibility, churches miss the opportunity to respond. But with the right systems in place, leaders can proactively reach out, offering care at the exact moment it’s needed most. From surveillance to stewardship. // Data collection isn’t surveillance, but rather stewardship. When used correctly, data enables pastors and leaders to care for people more effectively. A simple phone call or conversation, prompted by data, can change someone’s trajectory. Ronee shares examples of pastors identifying disengaged individuals, reaching out, and discovering significant life challenges—leading to holistic care that addresses spiritual, emotional, and practical needs. Culture matters more than tools. // While technology plays an important role, culture is the starting point. Churches must first align around why data matters. Without that shared conviction, systems will fail regardless of how advanced they are. Teams need clarity, support, and accountability to consistently engage with data. Leaders must normalize conversations about it by reviewing insights in meetings, celebrating wins, and integrating it into everyday ministry rhythms. Measuring what really matters. // One of the most important shifts happening today is moving beyond weekend attendance as the primary measure of health. Many churches are discovering they are actually ministering to two to three times more people than their weekend numbers suggest. This broader view changes how leaders think about staffing, engagement, and discipleship pathways. It also raises a deeper question: are we promoting participation, or are we cultivating transformation? To learn more about TouchPoint Software and access the free church health assessment, visit touchpointsoftware.com/unseminary. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, we say here at the podcast that it’s like stuff you wish they taught in seminary. And 100% know that today’s topic is one of those that they’re not talking about in seminary, but for particularly my executive pastors, senior leader type people that are listening in, you think about this almost every single day. And your team interacts with it multiple times a day. And it’s something you’re gonna wanna lean in on for an incredible conversation today with Ronee de Leon. She is the Executive Director of Partner Church Success at TouchPoint Software. If you do not know who TouchPoint Software is, you have been living under a rock. It’s a church management and engagement platform that serves churches across the country. She brings over 18 years of experience working in and alongside ministry, combining strategic systems, thinking with a deep heart for shepherding. TouchPoint, this is an incredible organization, has a mission for helping churches transform their data into discipleship, and they really talk a lot about engagement. And so we really want to dive in with this today. Ronee, thanks for being here. Thanks for being on the show.Ronee de Leon — It’s my pleasure. It’s great to be back, Rich. Thank you.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good to have you back on. Slightly different context, but same kind of conversations, but glad to have you back on. Why don’t you bring us up to speed? Tell us a little bit about the Ronee story and tell us a little bit about TouchPoint. How’s all that work together?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I have been on a journey. Anybody following the Lord, I feel like is on a fun adventure with Jesus. And I have definitely felt that in the last couple of years. I’ve been at TouchPoint for a little less than two years. But before that, I was at a large multi-site mega church based in Columbus, Ohio, and just grateful for the way that the Lord pivots us in our journey when it’s time. And so I had the opportunity to move from serving one church to lots and lots of churches across the country. And I just, it’s such a privilege to serve the bride of Christ in the way that we do at TouchPoint, like you said, through technology, but it’s so much more than that.Rich Birch — Yeah. and I want to take advantage, friends, I want to take advantage of the with the fact that Ronnie’s here. You see churches across the country. You’re working with churches across the country. You have a great experience. And friends, if you’re listening in today and you’re like, oh, like we already have a system like this, I want you to listen in because we’re not we’re not here to sell you on anything. We want to have a bigger conversation, ask some bigger questions, to help you wrestle with and think about this issue, but frankly, to take advantage of your position TouchPoint because you see so much. Rich Birch — When you think about the landscape of churches, when they’re looking at, you know, particularly the leaders, we’re thinking about executive pastor type person, when they come to actually knowing their people, where are their people are at at their church, Where what does a landscape look like for us on that front? How do we know kind of the people in our church? How do we get a sense of who are they? What are they do and how are they engaging with us?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I love the church, Rich. I recently have been kind of working through the language with the Lord of, I think the calling on my life is to be the best maid of honor to the bride of Christ that I can be. So it’s such a unique vantage point… Rich Birch — I love that. Ronee de Leon — …at TouchPoint serving churches all over the country, like you said. The church has a lot of passion and we’re doing a lot to reach people. But some things that I see are that we still have visibility gaps and why that matters is because churches cannot shepherd what they cannot see.Rich Birch — So true.Ronee de Leon — And so we we’ve got a lot of people in our care, but if we’re just taking ministry snapshots instead of understanding meaningful steps as people take their discipleship journey, we’re still struggling wit

33 min
APR 28

Invite Culture Problems? Stop Blaming Your People.

Your people aren’t broken. Here’s what’s really going on. Three weeks after I got my driver’s license, I put my car in a ditch. This was back when you could walk into the licensing office on your sixteenth birthday, get a learner’s permit, and … within a few weeks … be fully licensed, no restrictions, no supervision. And that was me. Sixteen years old, license in my wallet, and a car I was allowed to drive anywhere. It was a Christmas party, which meant it was a winter night. I was driving home with friends, a paved road transitioning to gravel, and I hit that washboard effect … the tires skittering sideways in a way I’d never felt before. My car did something I wasn’t expecting. I overcorrected and we ended up nose-down in the ditch on the wrong side of the road. Here’s the thing: I was fully licensed. I’d passed the test, on paper, and I knew how to drive. I just hadn’t been trained for that specific moment. Nobody had taken me out to a gravel road and said, This is what washboard feels like, this is what your car will do, and this is how you respond. The gap between licensed and actually prepared put me in a ditch. I think about that night almost every time a pastor tells me their people won’t invite. Your people are not the problem. Say it again. Your people are not the problem. Stop the quiet Monday-morning verdict that your people just don’t care enough, aren’t committed enough, or aren’t bold enough in their faith. That story is wrong. And worse, it’s leading you to the wrong solutions. Spiritual guilt campaigns don’t build invite culture. They build a two-week bump and a long guilt hangover. Here’s what the data actually says about your people. Roughly a third of unchurched Americans say they’d attend a worship service if a friend invited them. [ref] That number climbs for lower-barrier community events. Meanwhile, three in four regular churchgoers say the sermon content is a primary reason they show up … Scripture, connection to real life, and actual teaching. [ref] Translation: the receptivity is already sitting in your people’s friend groups. The weekend experience is already a word-of-mouth asset. Your people care, their friends are open, and the raw materials are there. So why is your invite rate what it is? Because licensed isn’t the same as trained. Your people are fully credentialed believers who’ve never been taken out on the gravel road. And when the invite moment shows up — a friend at work mentions a hard week, or a neighbor asks what you did this weekend — they hit the washboard and overcorrect. They mumble something vague or change the subject or go quiet. You read that as a motivation problem. But it isn’t. It’s a training problem and those are very different things — because one of them you can actually fix. What your people actually need (and it’s not another guilt sermon) Three things. Not one, not two, but three. Train their Heads // Most of your congregation thinks they’re passengers. Your people need to understand what role they actually play in reaching your community. Not abstractly or as a sermon illustration. It needs to be communicated as a job description. Most people in the seats on Sunday don’t believe they have a meaningful role in the impact your church will have on the community. They think that’s the pastor’s job, the staff’s job, or the outreach team’s job. When an invitation comes up, they nod along … but in their head, they’re a passenger. You’re the one driving the bus. Training changes the mental model. It teaches your people that they are the most persuasive communication channel your church has … more than your Instagram, more than your website, more than any ad you could run. The research backs this up repeatedly. People don’t get invited by buildings, they get invited by friends. When a congregation genuinely understands that — at a head level — their posture shifts. They stop waiting for the church to grow itself. Equip their Hands. // Your people freeze because nobody gave them a script. Now give them the tools. What are the actual words to say when a friend asks what you did this weekend? What do you text someone after they mention their marriage is struggling? What’s the language for inviting a coworker to Easter without it sounding like a pitch? What do you share on social media, and when, and how often? This is where most churches fall off a cliff. We train people at a concept level, then send them into real conversations with no script, no prompts, and no practice reps. They freeze. Of course, they freeze! We froze, too, the first time we tried to explain what grace is to a skeptical relative at Thanksgiving. Equipping means giving your people specific language, specific triggers for when to use it, and specific tools … shareable social posts, invite cards that don’t feel weird, text templates … that reduce the friction of the actual moment. Language without the tool is theory. The tool without the language is a tract left on a diner table. Motivate their Hearts. // Guilt is not vision. And finally: the why. This isn’t about guilt or obligation, and it’s not another way of saying that better Christians invite more people. Real motivation is vision. It’s the moment your people see that this — inviting their coworker, their sister-in-law, the single mom down the street — is how their community actually changes. This is how a marriage that’s quietly falling apart gets a Tuesday night small group. This is how a lonely senior gets a ride to church and a coffee after. This is how the teenager whose parents just got divorced finds one adult who keeps showing up. This is how we change the world. Not from the stage but from the seats. Motivation isn’t about making your people feel bad. It’s about letting them feel the weight of what their life is worth when it’s spent this way. Here’s why this matters for you specifically The pastor who thinks our people just won’t invite builds culture around guilt and shallow inspiration. Neither compound. You’ll run that sermon series every September and get the same spike every September and wonder why the baseline never moves. The pastor who thinks our people need to be trained, equipped, and motivated builds systems. And systems compound. Year one looks modest. Year three looks like a different church. One of those leaders is still running the same spike-and-drop cycle in 2031. The other isn’t. The question isn’t whether your people care. They do. The question is whether you’ve ever built them a gravel road to practice on, or whether you keep handing out licenses and acting surprised when they end up in the ditch. The Invite Culture Audit — May 12 On Tuesday, May 12 at 12pm ET, I’m hosting a free workshop called the Invite Culture Audit Workshop. It’s not a pep talk. It’s a diagnostic. For twenty years, I’ve had a front-row seat to what’s actually working inside growing churches across North America. And here’s what I keep seeing: the churches that are growing aren’t doing more. They’ve just made inviting normal. In 60 minutes, we’ll work through three things together: Why healthy churches get stuck — the hidden reason your church is doing all the right things, yet guest flow stays inconsistent and big days spike then settle right back. The 5 Gears of Invite Culture — the specific systems growing churches use to move from hoping people invite to expecting they will. Your 90-Day Invite Culture Blueprint — a practical plan to mobilize your people, multiply invitations, and build real momentum heading into fall 2026. You’ll walk out with your Invite Culture Scorecard — a clear picture of where your invite culture is strong, where it’s leaking, and which of the three — train, equip, or motivate — is the dominant blocker in your church right now. You won’t get a generic answer. The answer will be specifically your own. That’s the starting point for building the training your people never got. Zero pressure, no hard pitch, and your whole team is welcome. → Register for the free Invite Culture Audit Workshop One last thing about that ditch When the police pulled me out of the snow that night, they asked me where I wanted to go. My parents were out and I knew enough that I shouldn’t go home to an empty house. So, they drove me to Pastor Dave Lewis’s house – my senior pastor and a good man. (Plus … if I’m honest, I figured when they came to pick me up at Pastor Dave’s house that would soften any initial parental pressure.) He opened the door in whatever pastors wear at 10 pm on a winter night, and he wasn’t angry and he wasn’t disappointed. He was just kind. He let me sit on his couch, shake a little, and eventually call my folks to tell them what happened. My parents expressed concern, but — honestly — they didn’t freak out. They were just grateful I was alive. And then the police showed up at the front door with the real consequence: a one-month suspension. No driving. Here’s the truth: I didn’t want to drive after that experience. I was sixteen, and I’d scared myself badly. That month off did something the license test never did. I came back to the road a different driver. I was slower, more careful, and more aware of what I didn’t know. To this day, I drive slower than my wife. She’ll tell you that, cheerfully. I think about that sometimes when I’m talking to a pastor whose invite numbers are flat. Because your people aren’t reckless, they’re not uncommitted, but most of them are quietly in the ditch — they tried, it went sideways, they stopped trying, and now they’re just drivin

13 min
APR 23

Buddies Aren’t Brothers: Why Men in Your Church Are Stuck with Donnie Griggs

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Donnie Griggs, founding and lead pastor of One Harbor Church in eastern North Carolina. Over nearly two decades, Donnie has led the church from a living room gathering to a thriving multisite church reaching around 2,500 people each weekend in a rural context. In this conversation, we focus on a growing leadership challenge: how churches can effectively engage and disciple men in today’s cultural moment. Are you noticing fewer men engaging in your church, or struggling to define what biblical manhood even looks like today? Wondering how to call men forward without falling into shame-based or culturally distorted approaches? Donnie shares a practical and hopeful framework for building a culture of “good men” in your church. Recognizing the quiet crisis among men. // Donnie began noticing subtle but significant indicators: fewer weddings, more single women asking “Where are the good men?”, and a growing sense that many men were stuck—lacking vision, purpose, and direction. Even older men reaching retirement were finding that the life they had worked toward didn’t deliver the fulfillment they expected. These observations, combined with broader cultural trends, led Donnie to believe that churches must intentionally address the formation of men rather than assume it will happen naturally. Prioritizing men again. // Donnie made a conscious decision to focus on men’s ministry, creating intentional environments like men’s gatherings, reframing how the church speaks to men, and leveraging key moments like Father’s Day. Instead of reinforcing negative stereotypes, the goal became calling something out of men and casting vision for who they can become. Redefining the goal: good, not great. // Central to Donnie’s approach is a shift away from cultural obsession with “greatness” toward biblical “goodness.” Rather than pushing men to become influencers or achieve notoriety, he emphasizes becoming faithful, reliable, and obedient. To make this practical, he developed a simple framework describing a “good man”: someone who embraces responsibility, serves and protects, blesses and encourages others, builds deep friendships with other men, and ultimately follows Jesus. This framework gives men a clear target, which many struggle to articulate on their own. Combating unhealthy cultural narratives. // Donnie is careful to address both extremes in cultural conversations about masculinity. On one hand, he rejects exaggerated “alpha male” stereotypes that emphasize dominance and performance. On the other, he acknowledges that harmful behaviors among men are real and must be addressed. His approach is to call men into a fuller, more biblical picture that includes strength and responsibility but also compassion, tenderness, and emotional health. Looking to the life of Jesus provides a balanced model that breaks down unhelpful stereotypes. Moving from shame to encouragement. // A key insight Donnie shares is that many men operate under a constant sense of shame, feeling like they are not enough and never will be. While shame can motivate behavior in the short term, it is ultimately destructive. Instead, churches must create cultures of encouragement. This includes helping men take responsibility without condemning them, affirming progress, and consistently speaking life into them. Encouragement, not shame, becomes the fuel for long-term transformation. Building brotherhood, not just buddies. // Another major gap Donnie identifies is the lack of deep male friendships. Many men have acquaintances but few relationships where they can be honest and vulnerable. He emphasizes the need for churches to create spaces where men can move from surface-level connections to genuine brotherhood. Tools like his book Becoming Good Men are designed to facilitate these conversations, helping men process deeper questions together rather than in isolation. A tool for churches to implement. // Donnie wrote Becoming Good Men to give churches a practical resource they can use in small groups, mentoring relationships, or larger men’s initiatives. With discussion questions built into each chapter, it’s designed to spark meaningful conversations and help men take tangible steps forward. To learn more about One Harbor Church, visit oneharborchurch.com. You can also find Donnie’s book Becoming Good Men on Amazon, Audible, or at becominggoodmen.org for bulk church resources. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a repeat guest on today, which what does that mean? That means that I want you to hear from them again. I’m really excited for today’s conversation because it’s super relevant. We’ve been hearing about this in kind of the broader news and we want to bring an expert on to help us think through these issues.Rich Birch — Today, excited to have Donnie Griggs with us. He is the founding and lead pastor of a fantastic church, One Harbor Church, a multi-site church with, if I’m counting correctly, three locations in North Carolina. They’re passionate about planting disciple-making churches in eastern North Carolina. So glad that you’re on the the show today. Welcome back, Donnie.Donnie Griggs — Man, so good to be with you, Rich. Thanks again for having me.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s going to be great. Why don’t we start with, tell us a little bit about One Harbor. Give us a quick picture of the church and what’s been God doing across your locations and since we last talked.Donnie Griggs — Yeah, sure. We started 17 and a half years ago in a living room. I kind of thought that’s what we would do forever and was really happy with that idea. I didn’t tell the person whose living room it was that my long term plan was to use their living room. And just God did something different and it just grew a lot. This is a town I’m from. So there’s ah a book about our town and my mom and my granddad are on the cover of it. And it’s very much like our town.Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Donnie Griggs — Yeah. So um huge desire to see, you know, people who just had no never thought they’d ever go to church. Like, um, those are the people that we were after. And, and so anyway been, been quite a ride the last 17 and a half years. Like you said, we’re now three locations. We average about 2,500 people on a Sunday across the the three locations. And we’re in a pretty small rural, you know, context. And so, that, you know, that’s got a lot of, a lot of great opportunities, you know, to, to make an impact, but also a lot of challenges as well. So that’s kind of it in a nutshell.Rich Birch — Yeah, you’ve been there for 17 or planted 17 years, been there much longer, but you know you’ve been pastoring this context for for you know almost two decades. Today, we’re going to talk specifically, friends, about kind of men in the church and what are we doing as churches to engage men. And Donnie’s done some really great stuff on this front that I want to make sure we kind of unpack. But what have you been noticing about the men in your church and in your community over the last couple of years? What are some of the things have been kind of on your heart and mind around this?Donnie Griggs — Gosh. So I think one of the things is there’s kind of a few things. One, I noticed of just randomly that we weren’t doing as many weddings as we used to do. It was just this random kind of data point that I was like, why do I feel like I’m hardly doing any weddings anymore? And then kind of with that, I found like almost it felt like every Sunday, some really great single woman would come up to me and be like, where are the men? Like, where are the good men? You know?Rich Birch — Right.Donnie Griggs — And so that was kind of going on in in the background. And then I just kind of with that saw so many men that were just stuck in various ways, really visionless, bored. Even like older guys who kind of had this really jarring moment where they make it to retirement. They think, oh, my gosh, like I’ve I’ve arrived now. I can just golf all day or fish all day. And and and and really just, you know, me seeing, you know, and I’m I’m not I’m almost 45. So I’m a little ways away from this. But to like see how unsettling that was for men and how really jarring and and honestly, how un

35 min
APR 21

Barry Manilow, the Spotlight Effect & Why Your People Are Closer to Inviting Than You Think

Picture this. It’s the year 2000, and a psychology lab at Cornell University is about to ruin a college student’s morning. A researcher hands an undergrad a t-shirt and asks them to put it on. The student unfolds it and sees the face staring back at them: Barry Manilow. Not vintage-cool Barry Manilow. Not ironic, Barry Manilow. Just… Barry Manilow. The kind of shirt that would get you roasted by your roommate before you made it out the door. The student puts it on anyway (this is science, after all) and is told to walk into a room where a group of peers is already seated. Before they open the door, the researcher asks a simple question: “How many people in that room do you think will notice your shirt?” The student thinks about it. They’re about to walk into a room of college kids wearing the musical equivalent of a “kick me” sign. They predict that about half the room will notice. They walk in and sit down. They endure a few minutes of low-grade social agony before the researcher pulls them out and surveys the room. The actual number of people who noticed the shirt? Roughly one in four. The student had overestimated by a factor of two. But the really fascinating part came next. When the researchers repeated the experiment with shirts people would actually want to wear … Bob Marley, Martin Luther King Jr. … the gap blew wide open. Students still predicted that nearly half the room would clock what they were wearing but the real number dropped to fewer than one in ten. A six-to-one overestimate. When the message was positive rather than embarrassing, people paid even less attention [ref]. Psychologists call this the Spotlight Effect. We anchor on our own vivid internal experience and dramatically overestimate how much other people are paying attention to us. Now apply that to your church. You’ve talked about inviting from the stage, you’ve put it in the newsletter, and you mentioned it in your staff meeting last month. It feels like you’ve been beating this drum constantly. But here’s what the research suggests: your congregation has barely registered the beat. And that’s not because they don’t care, it’s because human brains simply don’t absorb messages the way communicators assume they do. The encouraging news is that the gap between where your church is right now and genuine invite-culture momentum may be smaller than it feels. Your people love your church and they’re already in the room, but they need far more persistent encouragement, training, and equipping around invitation than most leaders realize. The difference between stuck churches and growing churches comes down to this: growing churches persistently train, equip, and motivate their people to invite. They don’t do it once a quarter but rather build it into the rhythm of everything they do, all year long. You’re Tapping, They’re Guessing There’s a lesser-known study from Stanford that might be the single most uncomfortable data point for anyone who communicates for a living. Researcher Elizabeth Newton asked people to tap out the rhythm of well-known songs on a table while a listener tried to identify the tune. The tappers predicted their listeners would get it right about 50% of the time. The actual success rate was 2.5% [ref]. That’s a 20-to-1 gap between what the communicator heard in their head and what the audience actually received. This is exactly what happens in churches every week. A pastor who has spent 20 hours in a sermon text hears a full symphony of meaning, nuance, and application. The congregation hears a series of disconnected taps on a table. And when it comes to broader communication—announcements about serving, reminders to invite, follow-up on events—the gap compounds. An XPastor survey of roughly 200 church leaders found that leaders estimated 44% of their people had forgotten the sermon by Monday, and a cumulative 94% by Wednesday [ref]. Church communication practitioners consistently report the same phenomenon: people approach them after six weeks of announcements asking about events they’d never heard of. If 94% of your congregation has forgotten this week’s sermon by midweek, what happened to that invitation challenge you made three Sundays ago? The honest answer is that it evaporated. Don’t despair over this because it’s just a reason to lean in harder and more consistently than you thought you needed to. The Channels Are Working Against You Even when you do communicate about the invitation, the platforms themselves are filtering your message before it reaches your people. Facebook organic reach has collapsed from 16% in 2012 to approximately 1.2–1.65% in 2025 [ref]. A church page with 10,000 followers reaches roughly 130–165 people per post. Instagram organic reach sits at around 3.5%, and it dropped another 30–40% across all post formats in 2025 alone. A church that posts once on Facebook and once on Instagram and considers the communication job done has reached, at best, about 5% of its online followers. Email is the bright spot for churches, but even it tells a sobering story. Religious organizations have some of the highest email open rates of any industry, which is roughly 30% according to analysis of more than 91,000 church emails [ref]. Those are strong numbers. They also mean 70% of your email list never opens any given message, and more than 90% never click a link inside it. Meanwhile, the average person encounters an estimated 6,000–10,000 marketing messages per day and consciously registers fewer than 150 of them. Your midweek email is competing with thousands of other messages for one of those limited attention slots. None of this means you should stop posting or stop emailing. It means that a single mention through a single channel barely registers. If you want your congregation to internalize the idea that inviting friends is a normal, expected part of following Jesus at your church, you need to show up across multiple channels, repeatedly, over weeks and months. The research on multi-channel communication backs this up: campaigns using three or more channels produced a 287% higher engagement rate than single-channel campaigns [ref], and multi-channel donors give roughly three times more in lifetime value than single-channel donors [ref]. Multiple channels don’t just add to your message. They multiply its impact, because each new context creates a distinct memory trace and a separate pathway to recall. Repetition Isn’t Annoying. It’s How Trust Gets Built. There’s a reason the idea of persistent communication makes church leaders uneasy. Nobody wants to be the church that nags. But the science on how humans process repeated messages is remarkably clear, and it doesn’t validate the fear. Robert Zajonc’s Mere Exposure Effect, first demonstrated in 1968, showed that repeated exposure to a stimulus—with no reinforcement, no reward, no positive association—is enough on its own to increase how much people like it [ref]. A 2017 meta-analysis of 268 exposure curves confirmed that the preference curve rises with exposure and peaks at around 10–20 presentations before beginning to decline [ref]. And that decline is primarily a risk with simple, unchanging stimuli. When you vary the format or channel while keeping the core message consistent, the positive range extends significantly. The effect is actually stronger when people aren’t consciously aware of the repeated exposure [ref]. The old Marketing Rule of 7 … the idea that people need seven exposures before taking action …comes from the 1930s movie industry. In 2025, research across industries puts the average number of touchpoints before a decision at nearly 29 [ref]. Seven was the floor almost a century ago. Your congregation needs far more than a single stage announcement and an Instagram post to shift their behavior around invitation. “But We Don’t Want to Annoy People” This is the objection every church communicator faces, and it deserves a fair hearing. The fear of over-communicating is real, but the data says the fear is dramatically lopsided. A Stanford study by Flynn and Lide analyzed more than 2,700 archived 360-degree leadership assessments and conducted four additional studies. They found that leaders who miscalibrated their communication were nearly 10 times more likely to be criticized for under-communicating than for over-communicating [ref]. Leaders who under-communicated were perceived as lacking empathy and leadership ability. Leaders who over-communicated were, in the researchers’ words, given the benefit of the doubt. The conclusion was clear: over-communication may be seen as a nuisance, but under-communication is seen as a leadership flaw. The email data tells the same story from a different angle. Organizations that send emails only once a month have a 78% higher unsubscribe rate than those that send more frequently. The baseline unsubscribe rate for nonprofits sits at just 0.17–0.19% per send, which is well below the cross-industry average. Your people are not bolting when you show up in their inbox. They’re far more likely to disengage when they rarely hear from you at all. There are real tipping points, and it’s worth exploring them. Complaints increase meaningfully beyond five emails per week and spike beyond seven. But the resolution from the research is consistent: frequency is not the enemy, irrelevance is. People resist when they feel their autonomy is threatened, and that resistance is triggered far more by tone—guilt-laden, high-pressure, directive language—than by volume. The legitimate risk for churches is not communicating too often about invitation, it’s communicating too often with the same generic, unsegmented, ask-heavy content through a single channel. What Growing Churches Actually Do Differently If the research m

13 min
APR 16

If Sunday Morning Isn’t Working, Nothing Else Will with Jimmy Scroggins

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jimmy Scroggins, Lead Pastor of Family Church in South Florida. Under Jimmy’s leadership, Family Church has grown into a network of over 20 congregations across multiple languages, all unified under one structure while maintaining local leadership and live teaching at every location. Are you finding your church’s energy drifting in too many directions? Wondering how to keep your ministry focused while still doing all the “good things” churches are called to do? Tune in as Jimmy offers a clear perspective on why maintaining a relentless focus on the weekend experience is critical for sustained church growth. A network of neighborhood churches. // Family Church operates as one unified organization—one name, one budget, one leadership structure—but functions like a family of neighborhood churches. Each location has live preaching, local leadership, and contextualized ministry for its community. Like siblings in a family, each campus shares core DNA while expressing it differently based on context, language, and culture. This approach allows the church to scale while remaining personal and locally effective. Why Sunday still matters most. // One of Jimmy’s strongest convictions is that healthy churches must prioritize the weekend gathering. When growth slows, churches can be tempted to drift away from focusing on Sunday. Leaders may unintentionally elevate secondary ministries, such as midweek programs or community initiatives, because they feel like wins. However, if Sunday gatherings are not vibrant, engaging, and growing, the effectiveness of every other ministry will eventually decline as well. A healthy weekend service creates the momentum that fuels everything else, and secondary ministries all need to drive back to the Sunday experience. Creating alignment across multiple locations. // One way Family Church keeps the focus on Sunday, and maintains unity across a large multisite network, is through shared sermon planning, common teaching outlines, and collaborative preparation. While each pastor delivers messages in their own voice, the theological direction and structure remain consistent. At the same time, local campuses retain flexibility to adapt to their specific communities, ensuring both consistency and contextual relevance. Developing future leaders intentionally. // A key driver of Family Church’s growth is its leadership pipeline. The church utilizes internships, residencies, and student ministry roles to identify and develop future campus pastors. Notably, Jimmy views student pastors as potential senior leaders because their roles require a broad range of skills, from teaching and leadership to administration and pastoral care. By consistently investing in emerging leaders, the church creates a steady pipeline of capable pastors ready to lead new locations. Coaching for continuous improvement. // Teaching quality is a high priority, and every communicator receives regular coaching. Sermons are recorded, reviewed, and evaluated by trusted leaders who provide feedback and track growth over time. Jimmy himself participates in this process, modeling a culture of humility and continuous improvement. Refocusing requires difficult decisions. // For churches that have drifted away from prioritizing the weekend, Jimmy offers a caution: refocusing will require letting go of some good things. Leaders must carefully evaluate where time, money, and energy are being spent, and whether those investments are truly supporting the weekend experience and the church’s primary mission to make disciples. To learn more about Family Church, visit gofamilychurch.org and explore their resources and annual leadership conference. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a returning guest today, which, what does that mean? That means it’s somebody I want you to hear from again. Excited to have Jimmy Scroggins with us. He is the lead pastor at Family Church. They’re one of the fastest growing churches in the country with, if I’m counting correctly, 14 campuses in Florida, plus five locations in Spanish and a Portuguese location. That’s a lot of moving parts. Family Church is dedicated to building families in South Florida through a network of neighborhood churches. Jimmy became the lead pastor there in 2008. Super excited to have you on the show again today.Jimmy Scroggins — Hey, man, always glad to be with you and appreciate what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, encouraging to see you as well again. So why don’t you bring people just up to speed for folks who haven’t been following along with Family Church. Give us a picture where things are at today, your 14 campuses, multiple locations. What’s a network look like today? Tell us all about that.Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah, so actually, depending on how you can, you know, we use the word campus and church interchangeably. So although we are one church organization, one budget, one name, one leadership structure, one constitution and bylaws, we still function a lot from the perspective of an attender like likes independent churches because we have live teaching and live local leadership at every family church location.Rich Birch — Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — And so we have 20 locations. Rich Birch — Okay. Jimmy Scroggins — Then we have some additional, so because some of those are Spanish speaking… Rich Birch — Yep. Jimmy Scroggins — …yeah like Portuguese our Portuguese church has their own campus. A couple of our Spanish speaking churches have their own campus.Rich Birch — Love it.Jimmy Scroggins — Then a couple of them congregations meet on the same campus with an English speaking congregation.Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — And so so that’s that’s where we’re at. We have all those different physical locations and several more coming online in the next 12 months or so. Rich Birch — That’s fantastic.Jimmy Scroggins — And we’re really excited about the opportunity that we have to reach people in South Florida. We are not a megachurch. We have but a budget and the total attendance of a megachurch, but that’s in the aggregate. Our largest attended campus on a strong Sunday that’s not Easter might have 1,800 people. Our next one might have 1,500. We have another one that runs about 900. And then the rest of them are like usually with t between 400 and 600. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. That’s really this neighborhood church vision that you’ve been talking about, right? Which is the idea, if I remember correctly, it’s a one hundred locations that you’re hoping for, you’re wondering, you’re asking the Lord. Tell us talk to us a little bit about that.Jimmy Scroggins — We’re talking about a hundred congregations, so they don’t all have to be Family Church. So we felt that we also helped to plant a truly autonomous, independent churches that are not Family Church. And so between that and where we are now with our own locations, we think we’ve started out on 40 something… Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Jimmy Scroggins — …of these over the last 15 years or so. Rich Birch — That’s great.Jimmy Scroggins — And, You know, the number 100 is kind of aspirational. I don’t know if we’ll ever actually get 100. Rich Birch — Right. Jimmy Scroggins — But it’s it’s it’s close enough that we can measure progress, but far enough out there that it feels like, man, we’ve got a lot of work to do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. What what do you, this is like a sidebar question. How do you kind of define the difference between a Family Church, somebody that’s in the network or is a part of the Family Church versus a church plant?Jimmy Scroggins — Sure.Rich Birch — How do you think about the difference between those two?Jimmy Scroggins — Well, I mean, again, our our main markers, the one thing that, well, we say what makes us one church or

34 min
APR 9

Taking Over After a Great Leader: Lessons in Leading Through Transition with Scott Worthington

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Scott Worthington, Lead Pastor of Hope Church in Las Vegas, Nevada. After serving on staff for over 15 years, Scott stepped into the lead pastor role in 2022 following founding pastor Vance Pitman. In this conversation, Scott shares candid insights from that transition—what he learned, what surprised him, and how he’s helping the church move forward in a new season. Are you navigating a leadership transition—or preparing for one? Wondering how to honor the past while leading into the future? Scott offers practical wisdom on succession, culture, and leading through change with humility and clarity. When transition happens faster than expected. // Scott’s transition didn’t follow a long, multi-year succession plan. While there had been informal conversations about the future, the actual handoff happened in a matter of months when Vance stepped into a new national role. Moving from a worship/creative role into the senior pastor seat required rapid adjustment. One of Scott’s biggest realizations was that strong personal relationships don’t eliminate the complexity of leadership transition. Even with deep trust, there were moments of tension, especially when his leadership instincts differed from the mentor who had shaped him. Learning to lead without feeling like he was disappointing his former pastor became a key internal challenge. Hold tightly to mission, loosely to strategy. // As Scott stepped into leadership, he quickly identified what could not change: the church’s mission, vision, and core discipleship philosophy. For years, Hope Church had emphasized abiding in Christ as the foundation of ministry, rooted in John 15. That DNA remained non-negotiable. However, strategy was a different story. Scott embraced the idea that while the mission is fixed, methods must evolve. Ask the hard question: are we making disciples? // Early in his leadership, Scott gathered his team and asked a deceptively simple but weighty question: Are we actually making disciples? While there were encouraging stories of life change, the broader picture required honest evaluation. The disruptions of COVID had reshaped engagement, and the church needed to recalibrate. This question became the catalyst for new strategic direction, pushing the team to rethink how they measured spiritual growth and engagement. Introducing “spiritual cartography.” // One of the key strategic shifts Scott led was helping people identify where they are on their spiritual journey – a concept he calls “spiritual cartography.” The church began consistently communicating that everyone is somewhere spiritually and every Jesus follower has a next step. This language became embedded in sermons, staff culture, signage, and communication. To support this, they developed a simple “Discovery Tool” that helps people assess their current spiritual stage and identify next steps. Listening before leading. // In the early days of transition, Scott prioritized listening over directing. Rather than immediately implementing changes, he met with every department on staff, asking questions about culture, strengths, and areas for growth. Importantly, he resisted the urge to defend or explain, focusing instead on gathering insight. These conversations provided valuable data that shaped future decisions. His posture of humility helped build trust across the team during a potentially fragile season. Growing into the role. // One of Scott’s personal challenges was preaching. Having only preached 37 times before becoming lead pastor, he knew this was an area for growth. He joined a preaching cohort, studied extensively, and committed to getting reps. Over time, he began finding his own voice and learning not to imitate his predecessor but to lead authentically while still reflecting the influence of years under his leadership. A final reminder for leaders. // Scott closes with a powerful encouragement: ministry flows from intimacy with Jesus, not activity for Him. Leaders can easily drift into busyness and neglect their relationship with Christ. But as he reminds us, apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. True fruitfulness comes from abiding in Him. To learn more about Hope Church, visit hopechurchlv.com or follow @hopechurchlv on social media. Plus, don’t miss Hope’s spiritual cartography Discovery Tool. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is one of those issues that literally thousands of churches across the country are at some phase of working on. And so I know that this is going to be a practical conversation for you. Excited to have Scott Worthington with us today. He is the lead pastor at Hope Church, a church in Las Vegas. It’s a multisite church with three locations, if I can count correctly, in Nevada. They were founded in 2001 by Vance Pitman, and then he passed the baton to Scott, who stepped into the senior pastor role in 2022. Super excited to have Scott on the show today. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Scott Worthington — Thank you so much, Rich. It is a privilege. Grateful to be here with you today.Rich Birch — I’m honored that you’re you’re here and taking some time out. I know you’ve lots going on. Tell us a little bit of the Hope Church story, kind of cast a bit of the picture. If we were to arrive this weekend, what would we experience, that sort of thing?Scott Worthington — Yeah, Hope Church is an incredible church here in Las Vegas, as you said, three locations, three congregations what we call them. And yeah, I began to attend Hope Church right out of college in 2006, 2007, and been here for, I guess, 20 years now.Scott Worthington — And Vance Pitman, you mentioned his name. He was my pastor. He is the founding pastor here. He planted this church in 2001. Three dudes from the South moved to Las Vegas, Nevada, and 18 people started in his living room. It’s an incredible story of just church planting, and I don’t know how much we’ll get into that, but obviously that’s not my story to tell. That’s his, but it really is a miracle of God of what he’s done here. Scott Worthington — And then, yeah, Vance was my pastor for 16 years. I started as an intern in the student ministry and kind of just as God opened doors, walked through those doors, and eventually, I was the most surprised guy in the room when when Pastor Vance tapped tapped me on the shoulder in 2022, and he was being called to go lead a church planting organization here in North America. And yeah, he said, I think you’re supposed to be the senior pastor.Scott Worthington — And so we walked through our whole process, and it has been such a privilege now going on four years of leading the church that I’ve loved for 20. So it’s been a it’s been a wild, amazing, ah grace-filled ride, man.Rich Birch — Love it. I am looking forward diving into that today and helping people understand kind of what you learned through that process a little bit. I wonder if we could start, what’s your like, you know, you’re at a conference or you’re talking to somebody and they’re like, explain to me how the transition went. What’s the kind of the two minute version? I know it’s like, there’s a lot there, but how, how, how did that from that initial conversation through till, okay, you know, you’re now the lead pastor. What’s that look like?Scott Worthington — Yeah, the transition in the beginning, I would say it was it was really great. And and and the things that I’ll share publicly here is they’ve all been dealt with and things have been reconciled.Rich Birch — Yes.Scott Worthington — I’m so i’m so grateful. Pastor Vance is actually coming—our 25th anniversary is this September, and he is coming to preach our 25th anniversary. I’m so, so looking forward to that. Scott Worthington — But you know In the beginning, there’s there’s multiple ways to do transitions. Of course, there’s so many. Some people, especially when you got a kind of larger than life guy like Pastor Vance, they they’ll bring in another kind of larger than life big name somewhere. And we just felt like, and I say we, that was our whole lead pastoral staff, our st

36 min

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4.7

out of 5

109 Ratings

VERY PRACTICAL!

05/21/2024

W. Warren

Rich Birch consistently provides very helpful tools for Kingdom growth through church growth. His podcasts are an outstanding resource!
Practical and helpful

10/24/2023

Wtrmrk

Love the practical nature of this show. I went to seminary, and much of what I was taught revolved around seminary and high-level concepts. This show interviews practitioners who have learned from experience. Wish I knew about it earlier!
Growth and Help Resource

01/17/2023

Clueless Leader

I’m very thankful for Rich and his team at UnSeminary. The content is regularly updated and always applicable to leaders in church and ministry. I’ve experienced significant growth through the application of wisdom shared in this podcast. So many tools and resources shared here to help answer questions and help our teams serve the community in greater ways for the Kingdom!
Orthopraxy Strong. Orthodoxy Not So Much.

02/24/2023

PastorRingo

I often listen for the purpose of gathering fresh ideas and to keep up with trends and what’s happening in other churches. Rich has a great mind and is a good communicator, and puts out quality content. But personal experience seems to drive his theology to places I’m not always comfortable with. Wish he was more Bible-driven but his content is still helpful for those leading ministries.

stuff you wish they taught in seminary.

Creator

Rich Birch
Years Active

2013 - 2026
Episodes

300
Rating

Clean
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unSeminary Podcast

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If Sunday Morning Isn’t Working, Nothing Else Will with Jimmy Scroggins

Taking Over After a Great Leader: Lessons in Leading Through Transition with Scott Worthington

VERY PRACTICAL!

Practical and helpful

Growth and Help Resource

Orthopraxy Strong. Orthodoxy Not So Much.

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unSeminary Podcast

Episodes

Unshakable Faith in a Shifting Culture: Helping People Stay Rooted with Aaron Graham

When Your People Are Discipled More by Cable News Than by Scripture with Derwin L. Gray

From Data to Discipleship: The Four Cs Every Church Needs with Ronee de Leon

Invite Culture Problems? Stop Blaming Your People.

Buddies Aren’t Brothers: Why Men in Your Church Are Stuck with Donnie Griggs

Barry Manilow, the Spotlight Effect & Why Your People Are Closer to Inviting Than You Think

If Sunday Morning Isn’t Working, Nothing Else Will with Jimmy Scroggins

Taking Over After a Great Leader: Lessons in Leading Through Transition with Scott Worthington

Ratings & Reviews

About

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