Industry Relations

Rob Hahn and Greg Robertson

This is Industry Relations, a podcast that is at the intersection of real estate and technology from an insider's perspective. Hosted weekly by Rob Hahn (The Notorious ROB) and Greg Robertson.

  1. 6d ago

    Better Than a Kick in the Nuts

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg dig into the recent wave of MLS/association rev-share and rebate programs (NTREIS, MetroTex, Louisiana REALTORS, Bright MLS, CRMLS) as a new play in the old "sell real estate data to Wall Street" story — and debate whether cash incentives can actually replace cooperation now that compensation is no longer guaranteed. Key Takeaways Rev-share/rebate programs mark a shift from data-monetization business models (RPR, REdistribute, Cotality/CoreLogic's InfoNet) toward paying brokers directly to stay engaged with the MLS NTREIS, MetroTex, and Louisiana REALTORS have all announced versions of this; Bright MLS reportedly returned $4M to brokers last year Rob argues real estate data's value depends on geography/scale, use-case restrictions, and the broker-vs-participant pricing gap — and that MLSs need to consolidate to matter as data utilities Rob's old "Decentre" concept: charge everyone the same flat per-data-unit price regardless of broker/participant/hedge-fund status Both raise the Blackstone/Google "arbitrage" problem — nothing stops a big buyer from just getting a broker license to access cheaper participant pricing (Zillow already does this) Rob's take: these incentive programs implicitly admit that cooperation, once free, now needs to be paid for Greg pushes back that it's more behavioral nudging (like data showing 10 CMA reports predicts retention) than a sign cooperation is dying Middlemen erode payouts fast — Rob's math: eight cuts at 5% each wipes out ~40% of the value Rob compares the "usage-based" data pricing idea to Claude's flat token pricing vs. a hypothetical usage-dependent AI pricing model — most people would pick the flat rate Both agree the checks brokers get today are more symbolic than behavior-changing Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  2. Jul 15

    Bright Idea?

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg are joined by Nick Aufenkamp (Realtor Gone Rogue), a Vancouver, WA-based broker and Substack writer, for a debate on the Zillow v. MRED lawsuit, private/exclusive listings, and whether the MLS should function as a public utility. Nick attended the preliminary injunction hearing in person and shares firsthand takeaways on Compass, MRED, and Zillow's roles in the case, followed by a wide-ranging debate on data access, buyer vs. public rights, Bright MLS's new listing rules, and NAR's recent guidance on exclusive listings. Key Takeaways Nick introduces himself: a broker of ~5 years in Vancouver, WA, founder of the DIY Home Buyer Academy, and writer of the Realtor Gone Rogue Substack, launched in February 2026. Nick recaps the Zillow v. MRED preliminary injunction hearing, which determines whether MRED must keep Zillow's data feed live for 40,000+ Chicagoland listings. Discussion of whether Compass's move to feed out-of-state listings into MRED forced MRED's hand, and whether MRED "got played" in its partnership with Compass. Debate over whether an MLS has an implicit geographic boundary, and who gets to define "objective criteria" for listing access under the 2008 DOJ/NAR settlement. Analysis of Bright MLS's new rule letting agents skip syndication and price/days-on-market tracking without penalty, and how it could reshape Compass's "3-phase marketing" strategy. Core philosophical debate: does the general public have any rights to MLS data, or only buyers — and does treating the MLS as a "public utility" mean it should be regulated as one? Rob and Greg spar over whether hiding listing data (price, days on market) erodes public trust or simply reflects a legitimate marketing strategy. Discussion of fiduciary duty and lawsuits as a check on bad-actor brokerages, versus more mandatory disclosure rules. Closing debate on whether NAR is still genuinely invested in the MLS, and whether its recent guidance on exclusive listings is too little, too late. Links Realtor Gone Rogue   Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  3. Jul 8

    Fresh Listings, Fresh Trouble

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg kick off with some World Cup talk before diving into the Zillow vs. Compass preliminary injunction hearing, covering media coverage (Real Estate News, Inman, Nick Alfenkamp's Substack), key testimony from Errol Samuelson on listing freshness, and cross-examination details involving Robert Reffkin and MRED. They debate whether Zillow "rules the industry" or whether the MLS cooperative model still holds, unpack what legitimate competition looks like in real estate, and explore what Compass's strategy should be going forward — doubling down on agents vs. positioning against AI and big tech. The episode closes with a wide-ranging, contentious debate on whether private/exclusive listings carry fair housing implications tied to America's history of housing discrimination. Key Takeaways Coverage of the Zillow vs. Compass hearing came primarily from Real Estate News, Inman (AJ Trace), and Nick Alfenkamp's Substack; Zillow reportedly covered Alfenkamp's travel expenses to the trial. Errol Samuelson testified that a new listing gets significantly more views on its first day than by day five, framing the core dispute as who gets to benefit from "fresh" listings — the listing broker/MLS cooperative or the largest portal (Zillow). Reporting suggested Robert Reffkin encouraged Bright MLS to follow MRED's example and reacted negatively when Bright chose to stay neutral; MRED had reportedly run private listing networks for a decade before Compass became a major player there. Rob argues MLS rules were broken and Zillow is seeking a legal exemption; Greg counters that broker cooperatives generally avoid side deals with MLSs to preserve a level playing field. A ruling from the judge is expected around the end of the month. Rob and Greg discuss Compass strategy options: positioning as a tech company (rejected by Wall Street), inventory/listing differentiation (private listings), and scaling via agent count (the Anywhere deal). Greg suggests Compass should double down on agent quality/reputation and buyer-demand data rather than "cheat codes" like exclusive inventory. They debate potential enemies for a Compass marketing strategy — NAR, Zillow, or AI/big tech broadly — with Rob arguing consumer trust in tech companies has shifted negatively in recent years. Extended debate on whether competing on exclusive inventory is illegitimate specifically in real estate (vs. law, banking, etc.), including whether fair housing history and housing discrimination sensitivities explain the industry's resistance to private listings. Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  4. Jul 1

    Changing, Clarifying and Consequences

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Greg shares a new AI-built Chrome extension that solves a surprisingly common MLS workflow problem before Rob and Greg revisit last week's conversation with Professor Hayunga. They dig deeper into the debate over private listings, buyer behavior, and whether exclusivity can actually increase sale prices. The conversation expands into real estate auctions, the purpose of industry policy, NAR governance, and the upcoming legal battle between Zillow and MRED over listing access and the Zillow Listing Access Standards. Key Takeaways Greg explains his new Chrome extension that copies MLS numbers from major listing portals. More analysis of Professor Hayunga's research on private listings and buyer behavior. Why some buyers may willingly pay a premium for exclusive access. Should residential real estate move toward open auction models? A debate over competition, regulation, and the role of NAR and MLS policy. Breaking down the upcoming Zillow vs. MRED legal hearing and what it could mean for the industry Links Greg's MLS Number Copier Chrome Extension Spoken Plainly: What the Zillow-MRED Hearing Is and Isn't Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  5. Jun 24

    Should Sellers Pick Pocket Listings?

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview This week, Rob and Greg are joined by Professor Darren Hayunga of the University of Georgia to discuss his research on pocket listings and private sales. Using 20 years of Dallas-Fort Worth MLS data, Darren explains why his findings challenge conventional wisdom about off-market transactions, how Clear Cooperation Policy impacted pocket sales, and why sellers may not be sacrificing value by avoiding the open market. The conversation explores market efficiency, buyer and seller behavior, luxury listings, and the broader implications for the ongoing industry debate around private listing networks and consumer choice.  Key Takeaways Professor Darren Hayunga's study found that pocket sales in Dallas-Fort Worth generated an average premium of roughly 1.7%, with luxury properties showing significantly higher premiums.  The research suggests sellers may benefit from avoiding what Darren calls the "negotiation tax" associated with traditional MLS listing strategies.  Clear Cooperation Policy largely eliminated the pricing advantage of pocket sales, but did not eliminate their use.  Pocket listings became more common over time, growing substantially after the early 2010s despite industry efforts to curb them.  The discussion highlights the challenges of measuring off-market transactions and the importance of comparing truly comparable properties when conducting housing research.  Rob and Greg debate whether the continued popularity of private sales reflects consumer preference, brokerage incentives, or broader market efficiencies. Links Contact Professor Hayunga Pocket Sales in the Housing Market: Selection, Outcomes and Policy   Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  6. Jun 18

    NAR Midyear Toothpaste

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg recap the 2026 NAR Midyear meetings in Washington, D.C., discussing the changing role of NAR in MLS policy, the ongoing debate around private listings and exclusive inventory, and the varying reactions from MLS leaders across the country. They also examine how brokers, MLSs, and portals are redefining their relationships as the industry continues to grapple with cooperation, consumer access, and listing distribution. Later, they discuss Mike DelPrete's recent industry webinar and dive into a broader philosophical debate about whether the MLS should function primarily as a professional cooperation platform or a consumer-facing marketing tool. Key Takeaways Greg shares observations from NAR Midyear, including conversations with MLS leaders about private listings, office exclusives, and broker cooperation. Many MLSs outside major markets are not experiencing the same level of disruption from private listing strategies seen in places like Southern California. Rob and Greg discuss whether MLSs should create listing statuses or tools to accommodate exclusive inventory while preserving cooperation. The conversation explores Zillow's growing influence in listing policy following NAR's reduced role in MLS governance. Mike DelPrete's webinar sparks discussion about the industry's biggest unresolved questions around private listings and MLS purpose. Rob argues that the MLS should primarily serve as a business-to-business cooperation platform, while Greg challenges that view by emphasizing the MLS's longstanding consumer-facing role. The episode examines how internet distribution, IDX, and syndication transformed listing marketing and agent behavior over the past two decades.   Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  7. Jun 10

    What Is the MLS, Anyway?

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg recap their time at the Signal conference before diving into one of the biggest debates facing organized real estate: what exactly is the MLS supposed to be? The conversation centers on "Pool," ThousandWatt's thought experiment for a national home exchange that would compensate listing contributors and charge data users. Rob argues the concept reveals a growing belief that the MLS is primarily a data repository, while Greg sees it as a modernized form of cooperation. From there, the discussion expands into the purpose of MLSs, the difference between cooperation and marketing, portal participation, private listing debates, government intervention, and whether the industry is losing sight of its core mission. Key Takeaways Rob discusses his new consulting engagement with Compass and why he believes independent opinions remain critical. Highlights from the Signal conference, including the branding lessons behind Liquid Death and ThousandWatt's "Pool" concept. Rob reveals Pool closely mirrors the Nexus MLS model he previously attempted to build. A debate over whether MLSs are fundamentally data repositories or broker cooperatives. Greg and Rob clash over the relationship between cooperation, compensation, marketing, and listing distribution. Discussion of off-market listings, seller choice, "velvet rope" marketing, and government involvement in real estate policy. Why both hosts believe the industry needs a clearer answer to the question: "What is the MLS?" Links 1000Watt's Pool Website Greg's 'Limited Exposure' Article  Rob's Analysis of Connecticut Law  Compass on Private Listings Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

  8. Jun 3

    What Happens When Zillow Stops Playing Nice?

    The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Greg revisits his "Poking the Bear" article and argues that the industry may be underestimating what happens if Zillow is pushed into becoming a direct competitor. Using a Nike-versus-Hyatt branding analogy, Greg and Rob debate whether a Zillow brokerage, franchise, or even MLS would be a nightmare scenario or simply the next stage of competition. The conversation expands into a broader discussion about MLS infrastructure, IDX, cooperation, listing distribution, and whether the industry is protecting outdated systems at the expense of innovation. Rob argues that the industry's real asset is cooperation, not marketing, while Greg contends that blowing up existing systems creates more risk than reward. The result is one of the podcast's most philosophical debates about competition, infrastructure, and the future of real estate. Key Takeaways Greg explains the premise of his "Poking the Bear" article and why he believes the industry should be careful about forcing Zillow into a more direct competitive role. The hosts discuss whether a national Zillow brokerage or franchise would be a serious threat to existing brokerages and brands. Rob argues that direct competition is preferable to the current situation because brokerages know how to compete against other brokerages, franchises, and MLSs. Greg questions whether Compass's evolution into a larger conglomerate could create opportunities for boutique and independent brokerage models. The discussion shifts to MLS infrastructure, with Rob arguing that cooperation—not marketing—is the true value proposition of the MLS system. Rob and Greg debate whether IDX remains relevant in its current form and whether it should become an opt-in rather than opt-out system. The hosts explore the difference between cooperation data and marketing data, and whether those functions should be separated moving forward. Greg argues that unrestricted competition could create unintended consequences, while Rob maintains that open competition ultimately benefits consumers. The episode closes with a larger conversation about preserving what makes the U.S. real estate market unique while adapting to new competitive realities.   Links Greg's Article   Connect with Rob and Greg Rob's Website  Greg's Website    Watch us on YouTube   Our Sponsors: Cotality  Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board    Production and Editing Services by Sunbound Studios

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4.7
out of 5
38 Ratings

About

This is Industry Relations, a podcast that is at the intersection of real estate and technology from an insider's perspective. Hosted weekly by Rob Hahn (The Notorious ROB) and Greg Robertson.

Information

  • Creator
    Rob Hahn and Greg Robertson
  • Years Active
    2017 - 2026
  • Episodes
    100
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Rob Hahn & Greg Robertson
  • Show Website
    Industry Relations

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