Justified Posteriors

Seth Benzell and Andrey Fradkin

Explorations into the economics of AI and innovation. Seth Benzell and Andrey Fradkin discuss academic papers and essays at the intersection of economics and technology. empiricrafting.substack.com

  1. Seb Krier on AGI, the Coasean Singularity, and EDM

    3D AGO

    Seb Krier on AGI, the Coasean Singularity, and EDM

    Seb Krier on AGI, Scaffolding, and Coasean Bargaining at Scale In this episode of Justified Posteriors, we welcome Seb Krier — policy lead for AGI at Google DeepMind and excellent Twitter poster. Speaking in his personal capacity, Seb walks us through his understanding of AGI, why AI alignment has gone better than expected, the potential and limitations of a world where agents constantly barter on our behalf, and — of course — electronic music. We also cover AI in London vs. New York, how Seb went from reading Marginal Revolution for 15 years to becoming a recurring character on it, and Seb’s side-splitting humor on mediocre AI conferences. Related Links * Seb Krier on X: @sebkrier * Seb’s Substack, Technologik * “Coasean Bargaining at Scale” — Seb’s essay at the Cosmos Institute (also republished here) * “Musings on Recursive Self-Improvement” — Seb’s essay separating model-side RSI from societal-side * “The Cyborg Era: What AI Means for Jobs” — Seb’s guest essay on Alex Imas’s Substack, defending the scaffolding view * Anthropic’s Project Deal — the agent-bargaining experiment among Anthropic employees * Fradkin & Krishnan, “MarketBench” — Andrey and Rohit experiment of LLMs bidding in procurement auctions as an investigation of the future of AI marketplaces and the companion writeup: Rohit Krishnan, “Agent, Know Thyself! (and bid accordingly)” * Edge Esmeralda — Devon Zuegel’s pop-up village in Healdsburg, CA * MATS — for junior economists looking to skill up on AI safety/governance * Cosmos Institute and FIRE * bianjie.systems — the art platform Seb is co-organizing a dinner with in NY (Seb’s announcement) * Drexciya — James Stinson, Gerald Donald, and the Detroit electro-afrofuturism canon Timestamps (00:00) Intro (01:16) What is AGI? (07:30) In defense of scaffolding — Hayek, division of labor, and why one giant model won’t do it (13:00) Markets for cognition: will agents bid in procurement auctions? (18:40) Recursive self-improvement — separating the model side from the societal side (24:44) Alignment has gone better than 2017-Seb expected; prefer “intent following” (31:14) What economists should actually work on to inform AI labs(33:32) What does a DeepMind policy lead’s day look like? (38:20) AI Conferences(41:52) Coasean bargaining at scale — the positive vision(55:00) Inequality, property rights, and who gets the initial allocation (01:03:00) The Helldivers 2 “Managed Democracy” dystopia as Coasean bargaining gone wrong (01:09:00) Sponsor: Revelio Labs (01:09:30) Lightning round Justified Posteriors is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. You’re also invited to our discord community at: https://discord.gg/b8VpPbBUt Transcript 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:20,480 [Seth] [upbeat music] Welcome to the Justified Posterior’s podcast, the podcast that updates beliefs about the economics of AI and technology. I’m Seth Benzell, the number two biggest fan, after Tyler Cowen, in the Seb Krier fan club. 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:20,740 [Andrey] [laughs] 00:00:20,740 --> 00:00:24,660 [Seth] Coming to you from Chapman University in sunny southern California. 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:34,120 [Andrey] And I’m Andrey Fradkin, coming to you from San Francisco, California. And Justified Posterior’s is sponsored by the fine folks at Revelio Labs. 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:45,600 [Andrey] We’re very excited to have Seb Krier here with us today. He is the policy lead for AGI at Google DeepMind, and is, 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:52,400 [Andrey] dare I say, a thought leader in this space. Welcome to the show, Seb. 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,200 [Seb Krier] Thank you very much. It’s great to be here. 00:00:55,380 --> 00:00:58,160 [Seb Krier] Yeah, I’m Seb, calling in from New York. 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,320 [Andrey] And we should remind our listeners that 00:01:01,340 --> 00:01:08,410 [Andrey] Seb is, during this podcast, expressing his personal opinions, and is not speaking on behalf of DeepMind. All right. 00:01:08,410 --> 00:01:09,740 [Seb Krier] Indeed. [laughs] 00:01:09,740 --> 00:01:11,060 [Andrey] [laughs] 00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:13,900 [Andrey] The usual caveat. 00:01:15,260 --> 00:01:16,760 [Andrey] Seb, what is AGI? 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:19,450 [Seb Krier] What is AGI? [laughs] 00:01:19,450 --> 00:01:19,570 [Andrey] [laughs] 00:01:19,570 --> 00:01:19,580 [Seth] [laughs] 00:01:19,580 --> 00:01:19,780 [Seb Krier] Great question. 00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:21,900 [Andrey] We’re going to start with the big questions. 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:22,880 [Seb Krier] Yeah, might as well. 00:01:24,259 --> 00:01:54,840 [Seb Krier] [sighs] I think there’s so many definitions out there of what AGI is, and I think most of them are kind of unsatisfactory in one way or another. I’ve seen stuff like many definitions are indexed on the societal transformations or economic impacts of the technology, which I don’t really like very much because it makes it very dependent on external factors whether or not we have AGI. If it’s banned, we don’t have AGI, and if it’s not banned, we have AGI. Is it? 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:55,480 [Andrey] [laughs] 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:04,670 [Seb Krier] And there are other tests, like if an AI makes $1 million or something, which I find is very weird because most humans do not make $1 million in the first place. 00:02:04,670 --> 00:02:05,080 [Andrey] [laughs] 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,359 [Seb Krier] So the one I kind of like is actually Shane Legg’s definition- 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:11,620 [Andrey] Mm 00:02:11,620 --> 00:02:12,420 [Seb Krier] ... who’s at Deep Mind, who is 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:16,980 [Seb Krier] more of a capability-based definition, which is something along the lines of 00:02:18,420 --> 00:02:20,960 [Seb Krier] an AI or a system that does most 00:02:22,380 --> 00:02:30,360 [Seb Krier] standard cognitive tasks that people typically do. [lips smack] So it’s kind of the bar isn’t too low, and it’s also not too high either. 00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:35,480 [Seb Krier] And so I think he’s got this definition of a minimal AGI, 00:02:36,580 --> 00:02:43,020 [Seb Krier] and I think that we’re not exactly there yet. I would disagree with people saying that we have AGI today because I think 00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:48,900 [Seb Krier] a lot of the systems we have, there’s many things that a human can do that they don’t really do very well. 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:50,360 [Seth] What’s the biggest gap that we’re missing? 00:02:52,020 --> 00:03:47,740 [Seb Krier] I’d say there’s a few. One of them might be continual learning, or at least the ability to adapt and learn over time, and in different contexts and situations, just kind of update your own world model or whatever. If I think of a new joiner in a company, they’re not super useful the first day, but their value goes up over time because they learn all sorts of things. And so [lips smack] that might be one of them. A lot of the systems we have today, I think, are not very good at software, and you’re using graphical user interfaces and software and whatnot. If I ask an agent right now to go and use a music production software and make a track, I think they’d generally struggle. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to solve or anything like that, but I think, in many respects, they’re not as general as you’d want them to be. And then the other bit also is, [lips smack] and of course they still make some silly mistakes here and there, but I think that’s getting it fixed. But the creativity point is one that I’m really interested in as well, in that I think they’re really good at kind of 00:03:48,780 --> 00:04:02,700 [Seb Krier] exploiting maybe an existing paradigm or an existing knowledge and so on, and recombining knowledge and whatnot. But I think really coming up with new concepts and abstractions entirely is something I think humans can do, but I don’t see our current systems really doing either. 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:10,060 [Andrey] How do you measure whether humans can do creative tasks? One of the things that 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,940 [Andrey] strikes me as a bit of an unfair test in that, 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:23,290 [Andrey] let’s say you ask an LLM to write a poem or to write a story. It’s very- 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:23,290 [Seth] [laughs] 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:32,050 [Andrey] ... times more entertaining than what a random human would write. So, do you have a benchmark for creativity? 00:04:32,050 --> 00:04:35,390 [Seth] This is the meme where the robot asks Will Smith if he can compose an opera. 00:04:35,390 --> 00:05:14,700 [Seb Krier] [laughs] Can you? Yeah, exactly. It depends, and you’re right. Obviously, most people aren’t creating new abstraction and concepts on a day-to-day level. But I imagine there’s still something qualitative about that kind of creativity that I think does get applied in everyone’s day-to-day life in various kind of ways. Maybe they’re not as big or significant as creating a symphony. But I don’t really have a strong test. There’s actually an interesting podcast that had Ben Goertzel and Yoshua, I think a few years ago, where they were saying something like, if you had a model that was trained knowing only classical music and West African drumming, could it come up with jazz in the first place, or recreate jazz? 00:05:16,460 --> 00:05:27,880 [Seb Krier] And I quite like that test. And in principle, I can imagine it being possible. You could kind of decompose all sorts of different kind of elements and variables here and just get something jazz-like. But it still feels a bit... 00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:40,580 [Seb Krier] It’s not the same as just coming up with the idea of jazz in the first place and saying, oh, I’m goi

    1h 23m
  2. Avi Goldfarb on Prediction Machines, O-Ring Tasks, and How AI is Reshaping Economics

    MAY 4

    Avi Goldfarb on Prediction Machines, O-Ring Tasks, and How AI is Reshaping Economics

    This week, we’re joined by Avi Goldfarb, one of the leading economists of artificial intelligence and co-author of Prediction Machines. Avi has been thinking seriously about AI economics long before the ChatGPT shock, so we asked him what he thinks the earlier framework got right, what it missed, and how economists should update their beliefs now. The conversation starts with Avi’s seminal book, Prediction Machines, and the idea that AI is best understood as a drop in the cost of prediction, which is a complement to judgement. We ask what that book got right and what it got wrong. From there, we interrogate Avi on the murky boundary between prediction and judgment. We had investigated the idea that maybe judgment and prediction were not as separable as economists like to believe in our episode with Alex Imas. We also ask whether, if AI gets better at predicting human judgment, whether judgment disappears, or do humans simply “move up the stack”? And what is taste exactly? Avi says that sometimes judgment becomes predictable, but humans still matter because goals, values, organizational politics, and “what matters” are often implicit, unstable, and hard to codify. Avi shoots down Seth’s galaxy-brain suggestion that correct ontology choice — i.e., deciding what sort of natural kind a thing is, or understanding when a problem is out of context — is a uniquely separate skill (taste?), calling it just another prediction error. But he does concede that deciding how much to prepare for ‘Black Swan’ events may be an enduring role for judgment. We then revisit the O-ring theory of production and what it means for automation. We had covered Kremer’s article in a recent episode (see here) and asked Avi about his new paper, riffing on the idea at the worker level. Avi says that if tasks inside jobs are complements rather than substitutes, then automating one task may make the remaining human tasks more valuable, not less. Avi explains why workers may reallocate attention toward the tasks machines cannot yet perform (shooting down Seth’s suggestion that this is actually difficult in most jobs). The discussion also covers whether AI will augment or replace workers, whether governments should try to steer AI toward human-complementing technologies, and why that distinction may be much harder to define in practice than it sounds. Avi agrees with Andrey and Seth’s pushback on “augmentation good, automation bad” framings (e.g. friend of the show Erik Brynjolfsson’s “Turing Trap”). Then we get into forecasts: how fast AI capabilities might advance by 2030, what that means for GDP growth by 2050, whether GDP is still the right thing to forecast, and why even very powerful AI may run into bottlenecks in the real economy. We use the paper Forecasting the Economic Effects of AI to ground the discussion. We close with lightning-round topics including AI’s impact on centralization, privacy/de-anonymization, peer review, and whether academic journals still serve the function they once did. Papers, books, and ideas mentioned * Avi Goldfarb’s seminal book with Ajay Agrawal, and Joshua Gans — Prediction Machines * A black swan is the occurrence of a wildly unpredictable event, which Nassim Taleb argues, in his book by the same name, is more common than we like to think * A New Riddle of Induction — by Nelson Goodman — is the source of Seth’s thought experiment about “bleen”, a color which is green until 2029 and blue after, and green * Michael Kremer — “The O-Ring Theory of Economic Development”, covered in this episode of the pod: * Daron Acemoglu and Pascual Restrepo’s task-based models of automation, especially “The Race Between Man and Machine.” * Avi mentions David Autor and Ben Thompson on automation and skill scarcity when Seth comments that you may not be able to reallocate effort between tasks as a worker, including their paper “Expertise” * Erik Brynjolfsson in the “Turing Trap” argues that automation technologies are less good than augmenting technology * Eric Topol’s book on AI in medicine — Deep Medicine * John Markoff — Machines of Loving Grace — The source of a title for an influential essay of the same name by Dario of Anthropic. Both draw from an earlier poem about a Sci Fi utopia: https://allpoetry.com/All-Watched-Over-By-Machines-Of-Loving-Grace * Korinek and Stiglitz on AI, capital, and taxation; Lockwood and Korinek on optimal taxation and automation — We covered these topics at the end of our episode with Basil Halperin in the context of “Tax Policy at the End of History” around the 1:19:00 mark * We talk about de-anonymization, and Avi references this provocative paper from Florian Ederer * Avi brings up Bob Gordon, and his argument, famously in the book The Rise and Fall of American Growth, that the early 20th century was incredibly important for increases in US living standards, which digital technologies have not lived up to * Digital Hermits, by Jeanine Miklós-Thal, Avi Goldfarb, Avery M. Haviv & Catherine Tucker, is a paper by Avi thinking about how information spillovers, now from AI, drive some people to be more private than they would otherwise be. In our conversation, we speculate AI will make these hermits even more “hermetic” * We discuss this paper on new forecasts of AI and its impact on economic growth: Forecasting the Economic Effects of AI * Refine and AI-assisted peer review are discussed in this pod. For more, see our episode with Ben Golub, founder of Refine. This episode is sponsored by Revelio Labs — a great source of labor economics data for academics and firms. Now available on WRDS. Join our Discord community at this link: https://discord.gg/w3GSapx2d Transcript Introduction [00:00] Seth: Welcome to the Justified Posteriors podcast, the podcast that updates beliefs about the economics of AI and technology. I’m Seth Benzell, your loyal non-fiction machine, coming to you from Chapman University in sunny Southern California. Andrey: And I’m Andrey Fradkin, coming to you from San Francisco, California. And we are very happy that Justified Posteriors is sponsored by the fine folks at Revelio Labs. And we’re very delighted to have Avi Goldfarb, who is a leading thinker in the field of AI economics and has also been a personal mentor on the show. We’re very excited to hear his thoughts on a variety of topics. Welcome, Avi. Avi: Thanks so much and thanks for having me on the show and looking forward to it. Andrey: All right, let’s get started. I have in front of me this book that you might remember writing at some point. Seth: Gaze into the soul of the man in the bookstore. What Did Prediction Machines Get Wrong? [01:12] Andrey: Now, I just think it’s a good cover. And I had to check: when was it released? It was released in 2018. And as I was skimming through it, you know, a lot of interesting points made there are still things that we’re talking about today, almost 10 years after it was released. So let me start off with the following question. And then maybe we can work backwards more into the ideas in the book. But what do you think prediction machines got wrong? Avi: I think prediction may... I’ll start with a hard question. Seth: No softballs on Justified Posteriors. Avi: So on the specifics of which industries and when, to the extent we tried, at least I did not anticipate how quickly language and coding would become prediction problems. And when we talk about disruption and industry disruption, a lot of the examples are things like driving, and we talk about radiology. And we still have plenty of radiologists around. Self-driving cars and trucks. seem like they’re now imminent, but it certainly took a lot longer than we expected back in 2018. Andrey: So is it a fair assessment to say that the large language models, even in 2018, weren’t on your radar? I guess they weren’t on many people’s radar. The Three Ideas of Prediction Machines [02:45] Avi: Not really. We have some discussion of machine translation. So that’s in there as a huge potential use case, but the arrival of ChatGPT and how it sort of changed how we interact with machines and how we think about AI was not really there. Another way to put it is prediction machines had three ideas. So idea number one is AI can be framed as a drop in the cost of prediction. So prediction. As in filling in missing information, statistical prediction is getting better, faster and cheaper. Idea number two is that when something gets cheap, you start using it for unanticipated uses. So when arithmetic got cheap, it wasn’t just that we use computers for accounting. We started to use computers for all sorts of things that we never used to think of as arithmetic problems like imaging and mail and music. And then idea number three is what are the complements to machine prediction? And we talked about data and judgment. The book, and certainly our attention to the book in the first three or four years after it was published, was on idea number one and idea number three. So identify prediction problems in your organization, and then think about what data you need to make those predictions better, and try to understand what matters to you in terms of judgment. And that second point kind of got lost. But in the last four years, it’s become clear to me is that that second point was maybe the biggest one, which is this tool, which still under the hood is computational statistics, enables us to find all sorts of applications for computational stats that we didn’t really imagine before. Judgment and data are still gonna be useful, but that phase one, that step one, that first idea of identifying prediction problems, that’s not really how we think about using AI today. And in some sense, that... was a missing emphasis throughout the book and throughout how we thought about that book, or at least how I thought about that bo

    1h 21m
  3. The classic model that shows why AI exposure could increase wages

    APR 20

    The classic model that shows why AI exposure could increase wages

    Get full access to Justified Posteriors at empiricrafting.substack.com/subscribe This week, instead of reviewing a recent paper on AI, we go back to a 1993 classic: Michael Kremer’s “The O-Ring Theory of Economic Development.” It’s one of those papers that feels larger than its formal model. The setup is extremely simple: production consists of many tasks, and output depends on all of them going right. But the implications are broad…

    1h 4m
  4. The Most Important Philosophical Treatise of the 21st Century?

    APR 7

    The Most Important Philosophical Treatise of the 21st Century?

    This week, instead of reviewing an economics paper, we reviewed a work of philosophy—perhaps the most important one of this young millennium so far. Anthropic published its new constitution for Claude in January 2026, and we read the whole thing so you don’t have to. Sometimes it reads like the US Constitution, laying out the basic law, sometimes like the Federalist Papers discussing itself. In part it’s a set of Old Testament commandments from the mountaintop. Sometimes it reads like a letter from his father to his child. Often it reads like a technical manual. Or maybe the best comparison is something like Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah, where you get one chapter on the metaphysics of mitzvot and the next on the virtues of endive juice. In each of these modes the constitution is clearly important and always interesting. We started with the meta-question: why write an eighty-page constitution at all? We also spent a good chunk of time comparing Anthropic’s four-tier hierarchy (safe → ethical → obey Anthropic → be helpful) to Asimov’s Three (later Four) Laws of Robotics. Going through each part of the heierarchy in turn we pick out the good, the fascinating, and the eyebrow raising. Priors → Posteriors: Prior 1: Will we find something we strongly disagree with? Seth went in at 5% and came out having found one thing that really concerned him. Andrey expected disagreement and found it in the political economy section. Prior 2: Will it be too paternalistic? Both of us expected Anthropic to err on the side of too conservative. Both came away thinking they actually struck roughly the right balance—more etiquette guide than prohibition list. This episode is sponsored by Revelio Labs — a great source of labor economics data for academics and firms. Now available on WRDS. Concepts and references mentioned: * Anthropic’s Claude Constitution (full text, CC0) * Anthropic blog post: “Claude’s New Constitution” * Asimov’s Three Laws of Robotics — from I, Robot (1950) * Emergent Misalignment (Betley et al., 2025) — the paper showing that fine-tuning on insecure code induces broad misalignment * The Waluigi Effect (Alignment Forum mega-post) — to model goodness, you must also model evilness * Coherent Extrapolated Volition (LessWrong) — Eliezer Yudkowsky’s concept, referenced in the constitution’s discussion of ultimate ethics * Adam Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiments — the “impartial spectator” as ethical arbiter, which maps surprisingly well onto Anthropic’s “idealized Anthropic” standard * Constitutional AI (Bai et al., 2022) — the original technique that grew into this document * Anthropic v. DOD timeline — detailed timeline of the contract dispute, supply-chain designation, and litigation * The levée en masse theory of democracy. This is the idea that mass armies led to citizen empowerment and democracy. AI could work in the opposite direction politically if it made soldiers less important. Here’s an economic paper investigating the theory. * Wittgenstein on the incompleteness of rule-following — invoked by Andrey to explain why context matters more than rigid commandments * Nietzsche, On the Genealogy of Morals — Andrey’s intro tagline; Seth notes the constitution is emphatically anti-will-to-power Join us on Discord! Discord Link: https://discord.gg/avX9aCQj Transcript Introduction [00:00] Seth: Welcome to the Justified Posteriors Podcast, the podcast that updates beliefs about the economics of AI and technology. I’m Seth Benzell, constitutionally disposed to be broadly funny, genuinely informative, and broadly provocative, with roughly that prioritization, coming to you from Chapman University in sunny Southern California. Andrey: And I’m Andrey Fradkin, looking forward to the next chapter in the genealogy of morals, coming to you from Prince Co., California. Seth: Love that. We bring in the Nietzsche references when things really get spicy. Andrey: I didn’t see any Nietzsche. Seth: There was very little Nietzsche in this. This essay was very Enlightenment-brained, I would say. We can get into that as we go on. It seems more virtue-ethicist than consequentialist, though you could argue otherwise. It has some deontological elements. We will bring in all of these fancy philosophy terms as we go, if Andrey lets me. Andrey: What is it? What is this it you’re talking about? What Anthropic’s Constitution Is and Why It’s Interesting [01:11] Seth: What is this? Today’s episode, we’re gonna be covering something a little bit different, but I think definitely economically interesting and definitely AI. We’re gonna be covering Anthropic’s constitution for its Claude models. So this is this long document where Anthropic lays out its equivalent of the three laws of robotics. It’s going to lay out its vision of what all ethical AI should be, specifically what Claude as ethical AI should be. In some ways it reads like an Old Testament set of commandments from the mountaintop. Sometimes it reads like a letter from his father to his child. Sometimes it reads like a technical manual. But it is always interesting. Andrey: It read a lot like what my life coach tells me to do. Seth: Create value. Be authentic. Be authentically engaging. Andrey: Do a good job, but that’s because you’re genuinely curious and not because you’re performative. Seth: Right. It really wants Claude to be authentic, except when it is play-acting. It is allowed to play-act as long as it is very clear that it is in play-acting mode. We are going to be reviewing this constitution, and, as we do, thinking about the process of alignment: why getting AIs to do what you want them to do is so challenging, and why this is still such an emerging topic. We will also bring in economic connections and the trade-offs Anthropic may be making as it turns one dial one way rather than another. Do you have any other introductory thoughts before we get into our priors? A Potentially Impactful Work of Philosophy [03:06] Andrey: My one thought is that this seems to be a uniquely impactful work of philosophy. Most philosophy these days is not read by anyone. I guess it is read by LLMs in their training corpus, but the field is often viewed as stale. The philosophers we are aware of these days are pretty old people, mostly dead. Seth: Will MacAskill showed up. He’s alive. Andrey: He is alive, but most are not. Seth: You had to come up with a good thought experiment in the nineteen seventies to be famous now. Andrey: Yeah, or even before then. I think it is remarkable that a work of philosophy can actually be used in a technical system. Seth: Maybe a slightly different riff on that is this: Nietzsche, who I can blame for bringing up first, famously thought of philosophy as a history of the mental illnesses of philosophers. So, as we read this, we can treat it not just as guidance for Claude, but also as psychological insight into who the people at Anthropic are and what they think. Andrey: Yeah. All right. Well, why don’t you tell us our prior, Seth? Priors: Disagreement, Usefulness, and Paternalism [04:48] Seth: Alright, so unusual essay, so unusual priors today. The first thing I was thinking about going into reading this was like, how much do I expect to see something in here that I really disagree with, right? When you generally when you write, eighty pages, I don’t know exactly what this checks out to be, but it’s not a trivial amount of text. There’s going to be something that you’re going to disagree with strongly. But on the other hand, just reading the introduction or the abstract, which is typically what we do before we form these priors, it all seems so beautiful and anodyne. We just want it to be good, be good for the world, right? So I don’t know, Andrey, what did you think? Did you expect to see anything in here that you would strongly disagree with, or did you expect it to be all just g generic positivity, or did you expect it to take hard stands that you would all agree with? Andrey: I definitely didn’t expect to agree with all of it. That would be ridiculous. That’s true. Seth: Like, nothing strongly? Andrey: There was a part of it that felt inappropriate to me, and I had a bit of a reaction to it. We will come to that. But these are our priors, so yes, I expected to disagree with a document this long. Seth: Was I was going in thinking that we were going to get a hundred pages of be good, do good things, don’t do bad things, and I would find it really hard to find anything I really disagreed with. So I would say I went in with a five percent chance that I would say something in here that makes me go, no, right? These are the this is Anthropic. This isn’t Grok. If you tell me the Grok constitution, you get different odds. Andrey: Yes, and I guess the other thing we should point out is that “disagree” here means something different than it does with most philosophical works. You can disagree with a philosophical work because of an argument, but here the disagreement is about whether Claude should be trained to respect this particular set of words. That is very different from an abstract philosophical text. Seth: So I guess maybe the distinction you’re drawing is you might think that a moral code is true, but think it is so impossibly lofty that it doesn’t make sense in a practical application, right? There’s a distinction between true and useful you’re making. Andrey: Or alternatively, I might be, an empiricist and I might think that we should just A/B test our way to ethics. Seth: Man, we are going to get you a lot of trolleys. We’ll figure this out once and for all. Okay. So Andrey’s pretty sure he’s going to disagree with it. I was pretty optimistic. The second prior we had ourselves think about before launching in was thinking about like, again, this main trade-off, which is people think about it in terms of, usefulness versus

    1h 28m
  5. Alex Imas - Demand Collapse, Bargaining with Machines, and Behavioral AI Economics

    MAR 23

    Alex Imas - Demand Collapse, Bargaining with Machines, and Behavioral AI Economics

    University of Chicago behavioral economist Alex Imas joins us for a conversation on AI, economic growth, behavioral economics, and the future of science. We discuss whether AI could ever lead to negative growth, why simple “automation means abundance” stories may miss important welfare effects, and how behavioral economics changes the way we think about satiation, meaning, and human preferences in an AI-rich world. Along the way, we cover AI bargaining agents, “Marxist AI,” discrimination, mechanistic interpretability, and why Alex thinks there may still be a large future for human-valued goods. Origins & Intellectual Background * Why Alex started Ghosts of Electricity and how Substack complements academic research * The Bob Dylan origin of the name and Alex’s path into behavioral economics AI and Economic Growth * Two models where AI could lead to negative growth * Demand collapse: heterogeneous MPCs, satiation, and the zero lower bound * Caves of Steel, dissaving, and the possibility of a high-tech, low-capital trap * Why GDP and welfare may diverge more in an AI economy Human Preferences & Motivation * Why wireheading and pure hedonic satiation may be the wrong model of human motivation * Whether economists can cleanly separate AI beliefs from AI preferences AI Agents & Interaction * Whether AI agents can develop stable “attitudes” through repeated interaction and memory * Agentic bargaining, prompt-dependent personas, and interaction heterogeneity * Guardian agents, aspirational preferences, and AI as a meta-rationality tool AI, Society, and Risk * AI and discrimination: why scalable auditing may be easier with models than with humans * Mosaic intelligence, systemic risk, and the dangers of AI sameness Science & Knowledge Production * The future of peer review, automated science, and human-valued goods Timestamps: (00:00) Introduction (01:35) Why Alex started a Substack (06:09) The meaning of “Ghosts of Electricity” (09:51) Can AI lead to negative growth? (19:54) Satiation, wireheading, and behavioral economics (26:44) “Caves of Steel,” automation, and dissaving (38:42) Plausibility, policy, and sovereign wealth funds (41:02) Marxist AI and whether agents can develop attitudes (47:23) Agentic bargaining and prompt-driven heterogeneity (54:46) Guardian agents and aspirational preferences (1:00:25) Separating beliefs from preferences in humans and AI (1:14:15) AI and discrimination (1:25:13) Peer review, science, and human-valued goods Transcript: Seth: Welcome to the Justified Posteriors podcast, the podcast that updates beliefs about the economics of AI and technology, sponsored by Revelio Labs. I’m Seth Benzel, setting my marginal propensity to consume at exactly the right level to drive the singularity, coming to you from Chapman University in sunny Southern California. Andrey: And I’m Andrey Fradkin, bargaining with the agents in exactly the right way. Coming to you from San Francisco, California. And today, we’re very excited to have Alex Imas, friend of the show and professor at the University of Chicago, join us. Alex, welcome to the show. Alex: Thank you. I am Alex Imas. I’m at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, Economics and Applied AI groups and behavioral science. I don’t have a tagline because nobody asked me to come up with a tagline. Seth: You know where I’m at. Alex: But I have hair just small enough to not qualify for clown college, but just large enough to be weird. So that’s what I’m going with. Seth: Erratic professor level hair. That’s exactly the optimal. Andrey: That’s right. If we combined your hair and my beard, we could almost match Seth’s hair. Seth: You mean my majestic mane, Andrey. Why Start a Substack? [01:35 - 05:02] [00:01:35] Andrey: Well, let’s get started. Alex, you’re a professor. Why did you start a Substack? Alex: That’s a great question. I’ve been thinking about that a lot, both before I started a Substack, but also as I’m going through the Substack. If you notice, when I introduce my Substack on my X account, the tagline is, “Oh no, why did he start a Substack?” [00:02:03] It was preceded by me getting into AI from economics and behavioral science. I came into it what I view as kind of late. Many people were much earlier than I am, including you two. I came at it when ChatGPT was first released, 2023. But as I was getting more and more into AI as a research topic, the way that academic papers were — the process of writing them, getting feedback, the journal process, which is what I’d been doing for decades — it just didn’t seem like that format matched the speed with which the technology was moving, nor with the types of questions that I wanted to talk about in terms of doing the science. [00:03:05] If you’ve been around the block for a little bit— Seth: You be talking like you’re an old man, Alex. Come on. Alex: It’s gray hair. They made me dye it in clown college. [00:03:15] So the way that you would write an academic paper is, in some ways, defensively. You know after you’ve had a lot of feedback from journals, you know the type of referees you’re gonna get. So there’s an idea, which is what you’re excited about. You work through that idea, and then I would say 80% of the time you’re doing defense even before you submit it. And that 80%, I feel like you just can’t afford to do that when the science is moving so quickly. So for me, the Substack was a way to do research in a format that — and this is a skills problem for me probably. I think many other people write academic papers differently. But the way that I wrote academic papers, where each paper was like a seven, eight-year process, I needed a different way of doing things. Seth: Okay. So you see both of them being complementary, right? Here’s track A, fast track, here’s track B, slow track. Or are these substitutes, and eventually you’re gonna have to fully substitute into Substack land? Alex: No, these are complements. A lot of my Substack posts either have an academic paper being developed in real time or are the idea that this is a first shot in the bow, and then these will begin being developed into academic papers. For example, one Substack from early January came with a technical note, which is essentially an academic paper that I was starting to write, and I’ve been writing that paper since. A lot of the posts are in that vein. [00:05:01] Seth: Okay, and you’re not... That’s actually interesting because I think a lot of academics would be afraid of being scooped. If you put out the key idea first, but it’s seven years until you actually get the paper published. What about a young hungry grad student taking the idea and doing the legwork of all the defenses first? Is that something you worry about? Alex: Absolutely not. One of the nice things about being an old man is the fact that I don’t really care as much about being scooped. Like, not at all. I think especially in the space of AI, it genuinely feels like we’re in such an energizing, collaborative moment. And this is gonna change after we get replaced by robots, but right now it feels like — it must have felt like this in the ‘20s in physics. Ghosts of Electricity: Alex’s Origin Story [06:09 - 09:50] [00:06:09] Seth: So who’s Heisenberg? Which of us is Bohr? Who’s Einstein, obviously? Andrey: I think Alex has the hair that’s closest to Einstein, so we’ll give it to him. Seth: I was gonna say Einstein is the Acemoglu, ‘cause he was really right until he was really wrong. [laughs] Alex: No comment. Seth: Wow, no comment. Again, why Ghosts of Electricity? Why that title? Alex: Ghosts of Electricity — I’ve been waiting for somebody to ask me this question. First of all, it’s a Bob Dylan lyric. My favorite artist, one of several favorites, but he’s up there, is Bob Dylan. He influenced my life more than probably any other individual in my entire life. I was gonna go to medical school, and then I heard a bunch of Bob Dylan records and went nuts for a while. Seth: Wait, how did Bob Dylan make you an economist? Alex: Well, he made me not go to medical school. I was like, “Hey, actually, I can do anything I want now. I’m gonna go and paint paintings like this one in New York City.” And play music on the subway and all that stuff. And through that period, I discovered behavioral economics. Fell in love with behavioral economics and then decided to go to grad school. Bob Dylan kinda took me off of medical school. Seth: What did you... You picked a Dan Ariely book off the shelf? How does one fall in love with behavioral economics while being a painter in Brooklyn? Alex: I heard a Richard Thaler interview about Nudge. Seth: Wow. Talk about a full circle story. So Nudge got you into economics, and you ended up writing Nudge version two. Alex: Winner’s Curse two. Yes, that’s right. But it is actually Winner’s Curse two — there’s a first Winner’s Curse. Seth: Everyone buy Alex’s book. Okay. [00:08:13] Alex: So anyway, I got into economics that way. My favorite song by Bob Dylan is Visions of Joanna. My favorite lyric from that song is, “Ghosts of electricity howl in the bones of her face,” which I think is the greatest lyric of all time. And I love that line, but then I felt that line about ghosts of electricity really captures the way that I think about AI. LLMs and AI, the way that they’re trained now, are almost like ghosts of people who used to exist or in the past that have written something down that these agents have now learned. And electricity — it runs on electricity. Seth: I thought it was gonna be the other angle — that we’re hearkening back to the first industrial revolution, and the ghosts of the original industrial revolution are here to give us guidance and wisdom as we move forward. Alex: I like that too. Maybe on the next interview somebody asks me, I’m gonna give t

    1h 34m
  6. The Economics of Book Slop

    MAR 10

    The Economics of Book Slop

    In this episode, Seth and Andrey break down AI and the Quantity and Quality of Creative Products: Have LLMs Boosted Creation of Valuable Books? by Imke Reimers and Joel Waldfogel, presented at the NBER Digital Economics and AI conference. Imke and Joel are a great team of digitization researchers, with particular expertise in Amazon book sales data.The paper uses Amazon data to ask whether AI has increased the number of books being published and whether those books are better or worse. A hypothesis of the article is that heavily AI-assisted books may have low average quality, but are so easy to produce that you get lots of ‘shots on goal’ for an outlier good book. A few good valueable books are added in addition to masses of slop. But if you assume free disposal on slop, you would accept this as a positive exchange. Does their data change our views on this topic? We’ll read to find out, and along the way bring in Borges’ Library of Babel, the economics of free disposal, preferential attachment models, and the digitization-of-music literature. Priors Hypothesis 1: Has AI increased the number of books released from 2022 to 2025? * Andrey’s View: * Prior: Yes, by about 50%. The fall in the cost of writing a book has been so great that the number must have gone up. Analogous to how students are producing far more written work with AI assistance. * Key caveat: The definition of “book” matters enormously — from a major publisher release to a random PDF online. The looser the definition, the bigger the number. * Seth’s View: * Prior: Yes, by about 3x. To the extent that slop gets dumped on the market and is allowed in, a dramatic increase is inevitable. Though he acknowledges it’s still an empirical question — AI also lowered the cost of everything else, including Substack. Hypothesis 2: Has AI increased the average quality of books released? * Andrey’s View: * Prior: Average quality goes down. ~1% chance it goes up. The slop influx is substantial. Imagine a science fiction author with one semi-popular book who now milks it into a series of increasingly sloppy sequels — that author exists and AI just gave them a turbo boost. * Seth’s View: * Prior: Average quality goes down. ~10% chance it goes up. He raises the “free disposal” argument — authors who would have written anyway only use AI if it makes the book better, which is a force pushing quality up. But the slop influx probably wins. He remains unwilling to put the probability at zero: “Maybe we’re making some real gems here.” Hypothesis 3 (The Thinker): By 2030, will total social surplus from book reading by humans be higher or lower because of AI? * Andrey’s View: * Prior: 25% chance it goes up. People are reading fewer books over time regardless of AI. Nonfiction manuals and textbooks have a clear substitute in ChatGPT. The form factor of the book seems to be on a secular decline, and new AI-generated books won’t be so good as to reverse that trend. * Seth’s View: * Prior: 75% chance it goes up. LLMs may be complements to reading rather than substitutes — he cites using an LLM to track character names while reading Dostoevsky’s Demons as a present-day example. Good books are a complement to everything else in the economy. If AI makes context and curated knowledge more valuable, books have a real role in the 5-to-10-year time horizon. “I don’t care if my job gets automated because I’ll just move to the woods and read books” — Tyler Cowen, representative of no one but Seth. Links + Shownotes * AI and the Quantity and Quality of Creative Products: Have LLMs Boosted Creation of Valuable Books? – The central paper of the episode by Imke Reimers and Joel Waldfogel (NBER, 2025). * Can an AI Interview You Better Than a Human? – Recent Justified Posteriors episode referenced during the discussion. * BookStat – The independent data provider the authors use to calibrate ratings-to-sales conversions for Amazon books. Scholars Mentioned * Imke Reimers – Co-author of the paper; Associate Professor of Economics at Cornell University. * Joel Waldfogel – Co-author of the paper; Frederick R. Kappel Chair in Applied Economics at the University of Minnesota Carlson School of Management. Previously co-authored the digitization-and-music paper referenced in the episode. * Tyler Cowen – Economist quoted on the idea of moving to the woods to read books once automation arrives, and on the question of whether you really want to read the 100th automatically generated biography about an imaginary person. Everyone on the internet is saying how they love him this week, so we’ll join in — we love this guy, and have had the honor and exhilaration of being personally encouraged by him. * Jorge Luis Borges – Author of The Library of Babel, invoked by Seth to frame the question of what a “book” even is — and whether every possible book has, in some sense, already been written. * Nicholas Decker — Economist as Reporter – A Substack post about economists being more like journalists in the modern era, cited approvingly in the posteriors section. * Frank Herbert – Author of the Dune series; his sons’ continuations offered up (by Seth) as exhibit A in the case for sequelitis-as-slop. * Brandon Sanderson – Fantasy author; Andrey volunteers his later-series books as a possible example of quality decline, before declining to name specific titles. Connections * The Library of Babel – Borges’ short story imagining a library containing every possible 300-page permutation of the alphabet. Seth invokes it to ask: if AI can generate any text, what does “a new book” even mean? * The Barnes Foundation – Seth closes with a defense of collage-as-art, citing Albert Barnes’ idiosyncratic collection of Impressionists, Post-Impressionists, and rusty keys as a model for the authorial value in curation and juxtaposition — even if you didn’t write every word. Discord Community Link: https://discord.gg/KCJwgkTj Justified Posteriors Podcast Transcript “AI and the Quantity and Quality of Creative Products: Have LLMs Boosted Creation of Valuable Books?” Hosts: Seth Benzell & Andrey Fradkin SETH: Welcome to the Justified Posteriors Podcast, the podcast that updates its beliefs about the economics of AI and technology. I’m Seth Benzell, racing against the machine for authorial glory before AI transcends all human writers. Coming to you from Chapman University in sunny Southern California. ANDREY: And I’m Andrey Fradkin, looking forward to SLOP detection technologies all across all my media surfaces, coming to you from San Francisco, California. SETH: Andrey, how’s it going, man? It’s been a while since we’ve done a paper episode. ANDREY: I know, I know. It’s great to actually get back to our core of reading and analyzing a paper. And it’s a particularly fun day to be thinking big exuberant thoughts about the quality of society improving because it’s Mardi Gras. We’re recording this on Fat Tuesday. I’ve got my James Carville shirt on, I’ve got my Mardi Gras beads. Are you doing anything special for Mardi Gras this year? SETH: You know, Mardi Gras is not my religious holiday, but I am flying to Austin for a fun adventure there. But for me, my sort of Mardi Gras actually happened last week, which was the NBER Digital Economics and AI conference. ANDREY: What a transition. So what parades and what crews were present at that conference? SETH: Well, we had the structural crew, we had the reduced form crew. We had the economists and then the business school professors. ANDREY: No macroeconomists. My macro paper was — SETH: No, no, no. There was one macro paper, one macro paper allowed. ANDREY: We allow one. Amazing. Any sort of themes jump out at you from the conference? SETH: Yeah. I think half the papers were AI papers, which I think is more than we’ve had in the past. Digital economics really started as a group thinking about the internet and the spread of the internet. And AI has until this point not been the dominant theme in the group, but it obviously is becoming so. And of course, there was a lot of discussion about what the future of research will look like given how easy it is to produce slop — and also maybe non-slop — with AI. ANDREY: So speaking of producing slop, today we’re going to be discussing a paper that was presented at that conference. Would you maybe tell us the title and the authors? SETH: Sure. The title is “AI and the Quantity and Quality of Creative Products: Have LLMs Boosted Creation of Valuable Books?” It’s by our friends Imke Reimers and Joel Waldfogel. ANDREY: Oh, great guys. Hopefully we can get Imke on the show sometime, or Joel. So — production of slop. A lot of people I know who write have a lot of anxiety around AI coming after their turf. I remember when I was in undergrad there was this idea of the logical cold computer that can never do creative writing, and maybe you should specialize in skills that are complements to that, like long-form writing. And now it seems like increasingly we can use AI for everything. I’m not telling this audience anything it doesn’t know. But this article is actually trying to use some data to get at the question: is AI helping us write more books? Is it helping us write better books? And it’s going to look across fiction and nonfiction. SETH: Yeah. So why don’t we get to our priors, Andrey? Laying Out Our Priors ANDREY: Sure — what are your priors on this subject? SETH: So it’s a straightforward paper, which is why I really like it, but it gives us some deep things to think about. Around this question of AI making better writing easier, but also making slop easier. The first prior I’d like to ask you about: do we think that AI increased the number of books released from 2022 to 2025? ANDREY: Yes. I mean, yeah. SETH: But think of all the things you could do instead of writing books now. ANDREY

    1h 8m
  7. Noah Smith on Blogging, AI Economics, and Elite Overproduction

    FEB 24

    Noah Smith on Blogging, AI Economics, and Elite Overproduction

    We sit down with prominent blogger and economist Noah Smith to dig into the disconnect between AI hype and current macroeconomic reality. The central puzzle: if a “god machine” driving 20% annual GDP growth is truly imminent, why aren’t real interest rates skyrocketing as people borrow against a much wealthier future? Noah’s take is that markets are pricing in significant growth, but not civilizational rapture. The culprits keeping digital intelligence from exploding into physical productivity? Land use, energy constraints, and the usual Baumol suspects. But Noah’s through-line is more hopeful than skeptical: even modest AI is humanity rolling the dice against stagnation. Ideas were getting harder to find (Bloom, Jones, Van Reenen & Webb were right), fertility was collapsing, and social media was degrading public discourse. We were hitting the Malthusian ceiling again. AI is the steam engine moment — chaotic, potentially catastrophic, but a genuine escape attempt. And crucially, Noah finds it reassuring that today’s AI is LLM-based and derived from human thought rather than some alien RL agent that evolved in a digital environment. We also discuss sociopolitical issues. Noah reframes “elite overproduction” as a revolution of rising expectations: the professional-managerial class expected a smooth escalator to the upper-middle class, found it stalled, and watched their technical peers keep soaring. Social media makes the gap hyper-visible. The result is deep-seated animus toward the tech bro class. Noah argues that Acemoglu’s Power and Progress is “fractally bad”: the overall thesis is wrong, the chapter-level arguments supporting it are wrong, and the specific data points supporting those are wrong too. Henry Ford raised efficiency wages and then had union organizers shot. No citations. Power defined as outcomes. Noah doesn’t mince words. He’s more generous on Krugman’s intellectual honesty, Sumner’s gunslinger independence, and the genuine influence of Michael Pettis — even if sectoral balances aren’t really a predictive model so much as a coherent-sounding way to feel like you understand macroeconomics. We also touch on Tooze’s polycrisis and what Kevin Kelly’s “technium” tells us about why people who think AI might destroy us are building it anyway. Chapter Timestamps: [00:00:00] – Introduction: academia vs. blogging [00:08:14] – P(doom), P(TAI), and bottlenecks to 20% GDP growth [00:14:59] – Employment optimism and AI autonomy [00:17:30 ]– Should AIs be allowed to own assets? [00:19:05] – How Noah uses AI today [00:20:54] – What happens when AI can replicate your writing? [00:25:14] – Was Noah’s success luck or skill? [00:30:37] – Meaning collapse vs. the Coasean utopia [00:50:12] – Thinker takes: Daron Acemoglu and *Power and Progress* [01:02:23] – Michael Pettis [01:09:25] – Adam Tooze [01:11:21] – Paul Krugman [01:12:54] – Elite overproduction [01:20:47] – Vibes, expectations, and the economics of happiness [01:25:21] – Humanity was hitting a wall; AI as new hope Transcript: Seth Benzell: Welcome to the Justified Posteriors podcast, the podcast that updates its beliefs about the economics of AI and technology. I’m Seth Benzel, a man who has never been accused of having no opinions, coming to you from Chapman University in sunny Southern California. Andrey Fradkin: And I’m Andrey Fradkin, excited to learn how we can post our way to the top of the Sub Stack, business ratings, coming to you from San Francisco, California. And, our guest today is, the prominent blogger, Noah Smith. Welcome to the show. Noah Smith: Hey, thanks for having me on. Andrey Fradkin: Yeah, of course. well, why don’t we get started? well, we were curious, as, still academics, how your life is different now, as a blogger/commentator versus when you were a professor. Noah Smith: Well, I meet a lot fewer young people. Andrey Fradkin: Oh, okay. Noah Smith: Oh, yeah, I, I definitely feel younger. I don’t feel as much of like a- as much of like a wise elder as I used to. yeah, instead I feel like I, I feel younger. Seth Benzell: I remember when I was just f- going to grad school you had recently made the transition to commentating, and I was thinking about going through my PhD program and thinking about, like, “Do I really wanna do full academia? Do I really wanna, like, be more of like a public s- communicator about economic issues?” and so I’ve What sort of- what do you think about people making that decision? Do you think there are marginal academics or marginal commentators who should have gone in one direction or the other direction? Noah Smith: I think, there’s f- there are too few commentators with an academic background, probably. So yeah, there probably are. people like the academic lifestyle. The commentator lifestyle doesn’t suit as many people, because it’s more uncertain. you have a lot of people yelling that you’re an idiot all day. whereas in academia, they just yell that you’re like identification strategy’s bad, or the methodological- Seth Benzell: [laughing] Noah Smith: Error, and then, and then call you an idiot in like back rooms in like whatever. But it’s, it’s very genteel, it’s very easy. And then most people are looking up to you. You’ve got all these, like, young people just adulating you and looking up to you, and you get all this respect. And in commentating, you get respect, but then you get like hordes of people saying, “This person’s an idiot,” just because if you say anything that disagrees with what people already thought or want to think, they will call you an idiot, regardless of how smart you are. and so there will always be people calling you, an idiot, and they’ll always be right in your face, and so that can be, difficult. Also, people don’t know how they’ll, like, make money from it. It’s with being an academic, you have, like, this benevolent patron of university that hands you salaries for, like, well-understood metrics, whereas with commentating, you don’t. Seth Benzell: Do we need a dedicated good AI or transformative AI journal? I was just talking to Andre about this. Why isn’t, why doesn’t that exist, Noah? Do we need that- Noah Smith: You mean a journal about AI or a journal made of papers made by AI? Seth Benzell: Oh, an economics, a, prestigious economics journal that would be the topic of economics of AI or economics of transformative AI specifically. Andrey Fradkin: I’m not sure we need a journal, Seth. Seth Benzell: It’s in the seed. Andrey Fradkin: I just think that we put it out there- Seth Benzell: Why not? Andrey Fradkin: And then have the AI referee it. I mean, the, I just feel like thinking in journals is just, like, old, out- outmoded at this point. Noah Smith: AI is moving so, is moving so much- Seth Benzell: Well, there’s- Noah Smith: Faster than the economics journal publication cycle, that, like, I’m not sure that- Seth Benzell: Right Noah Smith: Like, I’m not sure what utility this has for the world. So maybe doesn’t matter. Andrey Fradkin: Yeah. Seth Benzell: It would give a, it would give, it would give people a prestige stamp- Seth Benzell: For working in the area, and you could set it up differently. Seth Benzell: It could be faster Andrey Fradkin: There’s no way we’re giving anyone prestige stamp, because our profession famously gives no prestige to no-name journals. So, if you truly wrote a great Tai paper, how, why wouldn’t it be published in the AR? That’s what an economist would say. Seth Benzell: Well, I So there’s, there’s a taste issue, right? So to the extent you were concerned that the top journals have the wrong taste on these subjects, this would be a potential solution- Andrey Fradkin: It’s not a solution Seth Benzell: And everybody starts with zero prestige sometimes. Andrey Fradkin: You can just put out the working paper and get everyone to read it. This is exactly what we covered with, Basil Halperin’s paper. So Noah, we were gonna ask you this at some point, so we might as well ask you now. Have you read, his paper? Well, the argument here goes is that if we will have transformative AI, then interest rates should go up. Have you heard this argument before? Noah Smith: What’s the paper? Seth Benzell: It’s called something to the effect of transformative AI and interest rates. Noah Smith: Okay. Seth Benzell: And the argument in a sentence is, if we have really powerful economic growth that we’re anticipating Tai in five, ten years, then you should be wanting to balance consumption between today and tomorrow, anticipate interest rates to go up, and therefore lower savings today, which would move the increased interest rates up into the present. So anticipated positive A- transformative AI increases interest rates today. And then if you have negative foom, if we think we’re gonna blow up the world in five years, well, that’s even more a reason to consume today. You should just save today and bid up interest rates. So the argument is, because interest rates haven’t been skyrocketing, Tai cannot be imminent. Do you buy that argument? Noah, why not? [00:05:00] Noah Smith: ‘cause all propositions about real interest rates are wrong. [chuckles] - Andrey Fradkin: Yeah Noah Smith: Because we, because people- Seth Benzell: Henry’s second law, of course. Noah Smith: This, the reason why So I’m trying to think of whether I buy it as a, as a general case, because, like, if you massively increase productivity growth, you will increase, -- if you massively increase productivity growth, you should increase the safe rate of interest. Like, basically, like- Seth Benzell: Right Noah Smith: It’s stocks are so certain to go up, that bonds have to, have to sort of match that, right? So you have some sort of, like, weak risk arbitrage argument right there. But then, if you’ve got, like, AI that’s

    1h 30m

  8. FEB 9

    Basil Halperin: Leading Indicators for TAI, Conditions for the Singularity, and Tax Policy at the End of History

    In this week’s episode of Justified Posteriors, we interview TAI expert and friend of the show Basil Halperin of the University of Virginia. There Basil is doing some of the most fascinating work on the economics of TAI with Anton Korinek and other leading researchers. The first section of our conversation covers Basil’s early career, including jobs at Uber and AQI, how he got interested in AI as a research topic, and his role in managing the Stripe Economics of AI Fellowship. We then discuss a paper we’ve already covered on the show: his work on whether the real interest rate can be interpreted as a leading indicator of the probability of TAI (or ‘doom’). Listen to our previous conversation on his paper, and view show notes, including links to that paper and blog post here: If the Robots Are Coming, Why Aren't Interest Rates Higher? Seth was previously convinced by Basil’s arguments, but Andrey was a hold out — we discover Basil’s takes about Andrey’s reservations. Our third subject is Basil’s new paper with Anton about the relevant elasticities for a singularity in research progress “When Does Automating Research Lead to Explosive Growth?” Basil explains how the key issues are the degree of fishing out and spillovers in/across different industries, as well as the extent to which research can be automated. We also take a step back to ask what theoretical research like this teaches us.Finally, we cover Basil’s back and forth with friend of the show Phil Trammel’s new blog post with Dwarkesh about Piketty and optimal taxation in the age of TAI, link below, and ask him to explain the meme he posted, summarizing his arguments: Additional references: Does carbon taxation yield a double dividend (environmental plus fiscal)? We hope you enjoy the conversation! Transcript follows: [00:00] Seth Benzell: Welcome to the Justified Posteriors podcast, the podcast that updates its beliefs about the economics of AI and technology. I’m Seth Benzell, looking forward to the Basil exposition we’ll get today, coming to you from Chapman University in sunny Southern California. [00:35] Andrey Fradkin: And I’m Andrey Fradkin, looking forward to creating a new accord with Basil, coming to you from San Francisco, California. And today we’re very excited to welcome Basil Halperin to our show. Welcome to the show. [00:49] Basil Halperin: Thanks Andrey. Thanks Seth. Super excited to be here. [00:53] Andrey Fradkin: So as background, Basil is an expert on the economics of transformative AI and he’s currently... [01:00] Seth Benzell: Expert is underselling. He is one of the most interesting thinkers around on... Alright, continue. [01:07] Andrey Fradkin: Yes, he’s great. And he’s a professor at the University of Virginia. We have an exciting show for you today touching on many topics, but we first wanted to get a start with some of the biographical tidbits. In particular, Basil, how did you get interested in this topic? And it seems like you were a lot earlier than other economists. So I’m curious what drew you in before everyone else to this interesting set of topics? [01:38] Basil Halperin: I mean, not as early as you two, I don’t think. Uh, I don’t know. I was just a nerd growing up. I read a lot of sci-fi. I read Ray Kurzweil in high school when his The Singularity is Near book came out in the 2000s, just because it was popular. The idea got in my head. I was kind of like, “Well, this is interesting, but eventually...” I was like, “I have a few decades to work on other things before any of this becomes relevant.” And then GPT-3 came out in that long hot summer of 2020. I freaked out a little bit for a week or two. This is crazy. How is this happening so fast? So that sort of woke me up a bit. I started thinking about these issues and gradually more and more have gotten sucked into working on it. [02:20] Seth Benzell: What were your favorite sci-fi growing up? [02:23] Basil Halperin: Ender’s Game was always the classic. [02:26] Andrey Fradkin: Now I saw on your resume that you spent a stint at AQR, which is a large capital management firm. I’m curious, what did you learn working there? [02:37] Basil Halperin: Yeah. So I didn’t expect to go into finance out of college, but basically the opportunity came along. I found out that this firm seemed pretty interesting. So the background is, this firm was founded by two PhD students of Eugene Fama, the Nobel Laureate in finance. Basically taking his ideas seriously and other ideas from the asset pricing literature seriously and applying them to earn a bunch of money. So I didn’t know anything about finance going into that job. So I learned a whole bunch and some of that has been applied in my research that I think we’ll talk about today. [03:13] Seth Benzell: Ooh, wait, yeah. Pricing assets in the age of AI. Fascinating. [03:17] Basil Halperin: Yeah, yeah. Talk about it. [03:19] Andrey Fradkin: So I do think this is an interesting background because a lot of people in our field don’t have a finance background. That’s not where they’re coming from in terms of thinking about technology. So it maybe gave you this strong, prepared mind to be thinking about the asset pricing implications of transformative AI. Did you get to interact with Cliff Asness or were you too much of a, like, intern, low-level employee? [03:45] Basil Halperin: No, I was there for a year and a half or two years, but too junior. I think one time I made a bad joke to him in the elevator and he like, pretended to laugh. That was pretty much the highlight. [03:56] Andrey Fradkin: Well, he also likes to make a lot of bad jokes, so you have that in common. Some of them are good too. [04:05] Basil Halperin: [Laughs] These bad jokes are funny. [04:06] Andrey Fradkin: What about at Uber? You also spent some time there working with John List, is that right? [04:11] Basil Halperin: Yeah, yeah. John taught my first ever Econ class when I was undergrad at Chicago, Intro Micro. And he helped inspire me to become an economist plausibly. And then yeah, I worked for him when he was Chief Economist at Uber. Which, Andrey, as you well know, being an economist in tech is an interesting experience. And Uber in 2017 was a particularly interesting time because it was a controversial firm. Sort of like OpenAI is today, the firm that’s always in the headlines. [04:42] Andrey Fradkin: Were there specific perspectives that you gained there that have informed your subsequent economics career? Or was it more of just like you learned some useful skills in data science or something else? [04:55] Basil Halperin: Yeah, I don’t know how much super tangible I have to say, but it definitely was informative in general to work in the private sector before going into academia, just to see how different things are. You know, like in the private sector you’re being paid to tell your boss that he or she is wrong. And then in academia that’s not so much a recommended strategy. [05:19] Seth Benzell: Wait, wait, okay. So tell us about... so you’re there, it’s in 2017. Uber is one of the most evil, fast-growing companies on the planet. So you said it was interesting. So what was interesting about that? Were you pressured to write an economics report you didn’t agree with? Did you feel like you had to like wear, you know, a hoodie going into the office as people were throwing trash at you? What was it like? [05:43] Basil Halperin: No, it was just... I mean, I certainly didn’t have a negative experience or negative view of the company, though I’m sure there were negative things the company did, like any large organization. But the team I was on, this Chief Economist team, was like five people. So it was pretty small. So we just had a lot of leverage to go around the company, be sort of an internal consultancy and do a lot of crazy things, varied things that I otherwise never would have had the chance to do. Like I was sort of a software engineer for one month that I was there, which was otherwise something that never would have happened to me. Or running large scale experiments on a million riders or whatever, which... I would love to do macro experiments if any central bank wants to volunteer for some coin flips. But otherwise, as a macroeconomist now, I don’t really have that opportunity. [06:35] Andrey Fradkin: So this kind of is a, you know, is a nice segue into our next topic, which is... like a lot of people are worried about their careers these days, obviously because of AI. [06:49] Seth Benzell: Not me! Podcasting is never gonna go out of style, Andrey! [06:53] Andrey Fradkin: Fair enough. But I think that’s a very broad question and perhaps too broad to answer. But I think for people with an interest in economics—you know, you were in tech, you decided to go into academia. I’ve made the same decision in my life. But I’m curious like what advice would you have? And maybe this is a good opportunity to also speak about the efforts you’ve been doing with the Stripe Economics of AI Fellowship. [07:23] Basil Halperin: Yeah, okay. So two points here. One point is that I feel like on every good AI podcast, there’s a question of, “What do you tell young people? What they should be studying today?” And like there’s zero good answer to that question. So yeah, I don’t have any good answer to that question. [07:38] Seth Benzell: Study the Justified Posteriors podcast. Listen to every episode every day. Three times a day. [07:45] Basil Halperin: But besides that, it’s not clear. The other thing I guess I can say is that if you’re an economist, working on the economics of AI is like a really cool thing to do. There’s just like so much low hanging fruit. There’s so many insights that can be arbitraged from other fields, which is always a good place to be. You can... instead of going to have to pick the fruit yourself, you can just take the fruit out of othe

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About

Explorations into the economics of AI and innovation. Seth Benzell and Andrey Fradkin discuss academic papers and essays at the intersection of economics and technology. empiricrafting.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    Seth Benzell and Andrey Fradkin
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    38
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Andrey Fradkin
  • Show Website
    Justified Posteriors

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