Listen to my conversation with Penny Kittle, author of Micro Mentor Texts: Using Short Passages From Great Books to Teach Writer’s Craft (Scholastic, 2022). This will be our book club selection for January - March 2026. Join the chat below. Full subscribers can also access the video recording of our conversation here. See a preview below. Brief Bio * Penny is a long time teacher at every level of education. She writes about her practice at https://substack.com/@pennykittle. * She is the author of several books, including Write Beside Them and 180 Days (with Kelly Gallagher, with whom she also co-hosts digital discussions). * Penny is also the chairman of the board for the Book Love Foundation, dedicated to providing “classroom libraries comprised of hundreds of books carefully chosen by the teachers to meet students where they are and lead them to the deep rewards of reading”. Check out the Book Love Foundation Podcast to learn more. * When not in the classroom, Penny enjoys spending time with her grandchildren in New Hampshire. Summary In this conversation, Penny talk about a variety of topics, including: * the importance of teachers being knowledgeable and able to problem solve, * how to build students’ confidence as writers by showing them the process of writing that you as a teacher use, and * simple strategies, such as prompt writing, that can lead to students engaged in deep conversations during book clubs. Educators will walk away with a renewed sense of hope and agency in their own work with readers and writers. What part of this conversation resonated the most with you? Share your thoughts in the comments. Enjoyed this conversation? Restack and share this post to let others know! Full Transcript Matt Renwick: Hi, this is Matt Renwick, and welcome to Read by Example, where teachers are leaders and leaders know literacy. And I'm joined today by someone I've met, I think a year ago in Wisconsin, when she was here doing a training around micro-mentor texts, Penny Kittle, long-time teacher, professor, all things education, literacy. So welcome, Penny.Penny Kittle: Thanks, Matt. It's good to be on your podcast. I enjoyed meeting you that day, that was a lovely day.Matt Renwick: Yeah, it was fun. I don't think it was on my schedule, but I'm like, I'm gonna make this on my schedule, like, I wanna hear Penny talk. Just all the good things I've heard from Reggie Routman, and just what I read about you, so I was not disappointed. It was a great experience, and I know the teachers walked away that I was working with, like, this is good, like, we want... and I'm still working with those teachers, actually.Penny Kittle: Oh, that's cool.Matt Renwick: Yeah, we still talk about the micro-mentor text, and just giving them that foundation, that knowledge that I think they were craving. They were looking for just a resource, and you really give them some nice ideas to build their practice, so...Penny Kittle: That's good.Matt Renwick: So I have been reading, as this year before, Micro Mentor Text through Heinemann, Using Short Passages from Great Books to Teach Writer's Craft.Penny Kittle: From Scholastic, just so they would want to know that.Matt Renwick: Oh, I'm sorry. I told you I'd mess something up, Penny.Penny Kittle: We all do.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I'm not gonna edit it out, though, so... Thank you for correcting me. Yeah, Scholastic. And, yeah, terrific book, very practical, very wise. I'm like, I think I'm highlighting the footnotes as much as the content.Penny Kittle: Oh, that's so funny. I had so much fun writing that with footnotes.Matt Renwick: Just the asides were just really cool, some of the cool stories from, like, Don Graves and Don Murray. But your subtitle says it pretty well, but what is your definition of a mentor text? Because I hear that tossed around a lot. What makes a mentor text micro?Penny Kittle: Yeah, I mean, I think that I always talk to students about, we're mentors to the authors and their craft, right? The text is just that particular vehicle, and we're using it to say, what kind of decisions do writers make? Are they things that I want to try? Are things that I want to imitate, or are these things that will make my writing stronger? So anytime we're studying anything, we're looking at pieces of work in that genre. You know, it's the idea of authenticity in a writing classroom. We're making things that exist in the world, and here are some people who make those things, and then what do our essays or poems or whatever we're writing look like next to them. And so, micro-mentor texts came about because I do quick writing with kids day after day, and I realized how much of the time, if I used a passage from a book, and said, what do you think of this? What do you... and used it instead of the whole, that I could get them interested in reading a book, but I could also, in a few minutes, look at craft. It was almost... I think we put a magnifying glass on the cover of the book, because I said it's like, a micro-mentor text is small enough that you can just look at it carefully. And you can't do that with a whole book. So, that is the idea, is that we look at a passage, we think about how does it work, and we imitate it.Matt Renwick: I used to teach 5th and 6th grade, and I would do, like, book blurbs, and I would read a small passage from it to promote it, to recommend it, but what you're saying here is you almost got, like, a two-for-one, like you're sharing great literature, but you're also honing in on those specific craft moves that writers do.Penny Kittle: It is definitely the way to combine a book talk with a little bit of writing. And I, you know, I honestly feel like I've taught more grammar through Micro Mentor texts than anything else. Because I'm often, when I ask them, what do you notice? Talk to each other, and I wander the room, they'll bring things up. You know, what is that? Is that the colon or the semicolon? What's it, you know, if it doesn't come up naturally, I often don't have to say anything, but I like that oftentimes this organic... Okay, do you see how this sentence is structured? Why is this such a long sentence, kind of thing. A really natural way to make grammar a decision, not a right or wrong.Matt Renwick: Yeah, you're pulling the lines away from the craft of it, you know, you're giving kids access to a writer, to the author's intentions.Penny Kittle: Right. And their choices.Matt Renwick: Yeah. So, let me frame it this way. I think with the science of reading, a lot of folks are concerned with decoding, and how kids learn to read, and I see less about actually helping kids comprehend text. I mean, it's there, but it's not as prevalent. And there's like this double-edged sword where I think literacy leaders, teachers want to get away from the 3-cueing system, we want to support kids with being good decoders. But I think what happens is we're not teaching kids to like read text for real, like once kids know to decode a word, what's the purpose of actually reading the text? And so what I like about your book is, you're using real text, you know, kids are reading it for real reasons, and so I'm wondering what are the connections between micro-mentor texts and the science of reading that you've been thinking about.Penny Kittle: I mean, I think for me, in the idea of what I do with a micro-mentor text, I'm not decoding it, right? Unless they're stopping and asking me. But I usually read it to them. And so I'm a fluent model, or another student in the room is a fluent model. And then we're diving into this idea of the pattern, the rhythm, what makes it interesting? And so to me, when you're looking at written text and thinking about writing text, you need fluency. And fluency is one of the pieces of the science of reading. So sometimes I'll have kids with me that are reading two and three years below grade level. And fluency was something that we never worked on. They're still word callers in high school. And so getting them to read with more automaticity and faster is gonna help comprehension because they're gonna have more energy and, you know, more focus to spend that effort on it, rather than in word by word. So my, you know, in the idea of the science of reading, I think that we have to first realize in secondary there are a lot of skills and strategies that I teach on a daily basis and a lot of kids lack. And so we have to keep teaching them and letting kids know it's okay to ask. You know, what does that word say? What is it? What does it mean? And when they hear us talk about it, then they learn, right? So I just think that there's a great emphasis on that 20 to 30 minutes of core instruction that, of course, is gonna support skills and strategies. But that then have a whole child, right? We can't just do 20 minutes of skills and strategies and think we've taught the whole learner. We need to get to comprehension, which is the whole point. And we also need to write, because when we're composing and creating text, we're adding to that power. The science of reading includes writing. It's not just about decoding. And I think sometimes that's where people come to rest. But of course, as you know, Scarborough's Reading Rope has both sides. And word recognition isn't any good without language comprehension. We need both of those things.Matt Renwick: So you do have like a routine in your book that you talk about. So you read text to kids. I've seen that example of you reading The Outsiders for example. But then what do you do after reading that text? What's the typical steps that you recommend?Penny Kittle: Well, I mean, the steps that I do are pretty simple. And I think that almost at any level, from elementary through college, you can do these steps. So I read a passage, or a student reads a passage. Then I say, turn and talk. What do you notice? And I give them time. And I try not to be the one that tells them. I want them to point out things. So they'
