The Child Discipleship Podcast

Awana
  • 5.0 (52)
  • Christianity
  • Updated Weekly

The Child Discipleship Podcast is a conversation dedicated to anyone who cares about the future of the faith. Melanie Hester leads listeners through conversations happening within the world of children’s ministry, with insights from thought leaders and front-line servants in the local church and throughout the child advocacy space. We believe this generation of kids can be the greatest generation of disciples this world has ever seen, but they need loving caring adults like you to help make that happen. New episodes drop every Thursday, listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts!

  1. 6d ago

    Making Prayer the Foundation of Your Children’s Ministry

    Summary This episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast centers on a confession before it becomes a lesson: Matt Markins openly admits he spent years treating prayer as a management failure — something you turned to when leadership wasn’t enough. That honesty drives the whole conversation. Both hosts work through how children’s ministry workers (and ministry leaders at every level) default to strategy, logistics, and human effort, then bolt prayer on as an afterthought. The corrective they’re arguing for isn’t a new technique — it’s a posture shift: prayer as the first, central, and last thing, not a transitional element between the “real” work. The second half gets practical without getting shallow. They discuss what it looks like to model prayer for kids rather than just perform it, the difference between contending prayer and rote request-taking, the “God spotting” practice for helping children notice divine activity in their lives, and a striking story from Appleton Alliance Church where praying over popsicle sticks with children’s first names on them preceded unchurched kids actually showing up. They also discuss the book Lead with Prayer and close with the honest admission that no leader — no matter how gifted — is going to strategize their way to lasting faith in today’s children. Show Notes Episode Title: Prayer First, Central, and Last — Making Prayer the Foundation of Your Children’s Ministry Hosts: Matt Markins & Mike Handler What We Cover: Why ministry leaders default to strategy over prayer — and how to recognize that pattern in yourself Matt’s honest confession about how he operated at Awana for years before repenting of a leadership-first posture The difference between utilitarian prayer (Hail Mary, last resort) and contending prayer (appealing to God to do what only he can) What it means to “waste time with God” — and why that phrase is actually an invitation to intimacy Practical rhythms for weaving prayer into your personal morning, your team meetings, and your ministry week How to pray through Scripture when you don’t know where to start Inviting senior saints into your ministry through intercessory prayer Book recommendation: Lead with Prayer Practical Takeaways: Replace prayer request time with “how did God show up this week?” conversations with your kids Give your congregation something tangible to pray over — names, not abstraction. Start your morning in surrender before your brain is already three problems ahead Pray through a passage of Scripture when you don’t know how to begin The post Making Prayer the Foundation of Your Children’s Ministry appeared first on Child Discipleship.

    30 min

  2. Jun 17

    Creating Parent Partnerships

    Despite decades of effort since George Barna popularized the “parents as primary spiritual influence” framework in 2003, children’s ministry leaders still report that parents aren’t consistently discipling their kids at home. Awana’s 2022 research reveals why: it’s not a motivation problem on either side — it’s a structural one. Kids pastors spend the overwhelming majority of their time on administrative and logistical tasks, while parents consistently say no one has ever relationallyshown them how to disciple their children. The result is a stalemate: both parties want the same outcome but the ministry operating system isn’t built to produce it. The practical solution isn’t an overhaul — it’s a calendar shift. Matt Markins argues that children’s ministry leaders should block two to four hours per week for relational parent engagement, but do it six to twelve months in advance, before the calendar fills with urgent tasks. Start with two or three families already doing it well, build from there iteratively, and eventually integrate parent-equipping as a standing program — like a new members class, but for discipling your own kids. The goal isn’t perfection or scale from day one; it’s moving from zero relational investment to something consistent and repeatable. Show Notes What You’ll Learn: Why the church-home partnership is stuck in a stalemate — and what the data actually shows How children’s ministry leaders really spend their time (hint: mostly admin) What parents say is the #1 reason they don’t disciple their kids at home The one calendar move that makes relational parent ministry actually sustainable How to start small — whether you lead a church of 50 or 5,000 Research Referenced: Transforming Children into Spiritual Champions — George Barna (2003) Faith of Our Children: Eight Timely Research Insights for the Next Generation — D6 (2022) Forming Faith — Moody Publishers Quotable: “Parents aren’t saying they don’t want to do this. They’re saying no one has ever shown them how.” Action Step: Open your calendar right now. Find a week six months from now. Block two to three hours for relational parent engagement. Don’t wait until next month. The post Creating Parent Partnerships appeared first on Child Discipleship.

    31 min

  3. Jun 10

    The Love of The Father

    On this special Father’s Day episode, co-hosts Matt Markins and Mike Handler explore the complicated emotions the holiday can stir up and the redemptive opportunity it presents for dads. Matt shares the origin story of his new children’s book, Daddy, How Much Do You Love Me? (New Growth Press) — a journey that began with processing his own painful relationship with his father in his mid-thirties, and a Josh McDowell story from a Focus on the Family broadcast in which Josh told his young son Sean, at a packed college football stadium, that he loved him more than all those people put together. That moment of fatherly expression stayed with Matt for over a decade before sparking the idea for a book that helps dads connect relationally with their kids. The conversation digs into the book’s intentionally singular purpose: not a parenting seminar, but a beautifully illustrated story that follows a father and son through ordinary and epic moments alike — playing ball, visiting dad’s workplace, camping under the stars — all answering the question every child is silently asking: “Am I lovable?” Matt closes by drawing on the parable of the prodigal son, identifying three marks of the father in Jesus’ story that earthly dads can embody: being present (accessible, phones down, there in the mundane), patient (letting kids fall and welcoming them back without anger), and pursuing (going out to our children, whether they’re the rebellious son or the self-righteous one). Ultimately, the book points both child and parent toward the love of the heavenly Father. Show Notes In This Episode: Why Father’s Day is “like sitting on a fence” — and the redeeming side of a complicated holiday The “rocket fuel” of a painful past: how Matt processed his relationship with his own father The Josh McDowell stadium story that planted the seed for the book Why a book should do one thing well — not be a Swiss Army knife How ordinary moments (ice cream, walks, ballgames) answer a child’s deepest question: “Am I lovable?” The three Ps from the prodigal son’s father: Present, Patient, Pursuing Pointing our kids beyond ourselves to the love of their heavenly Father Resources Mentioned: Daddy, How Much Do You Love Me? by Matt Markins (New Growth Press) — available wherever books are sold  Forming Faith by Matt Markins & Mike Handler  The post The Love of The Father appeared first on Child Discipleship.

    16 min

  4. Jun 3

    Excellence and Experience

    Episode Summary In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast, host Mike Handler sits down with Sam Luce, director of ChildDiscipleship.com, to discuss a provocative question at the heart of children’s ministry: have we traded authentic discipleship for polished production? Sam unpacks a chapter he contributed to Forming Faith, arguing that many churches have fallen into what he calls the “Disney ditch” — prioritizing engaging environments, theming, and performance to the point that kids have a great experience but never actually encounter Jesus. He’s quick to clarify he’s not calling for a joyless, overly serious ministry, but rather for leaders to examine the motivation beneath the methods, asking whether excellence is serving discipleship or quietly replacing it. “Excellence is a by-product of relational accountability over time.” — Sam Luce The conversation moves into deeply practical territory, exploring how an obsession with polished production can actually rob kids of formative opportunities. Sam and Mike discuss how welcoming children into imperfect, real acts of service — running a soundboard, setting up chairs, even preaching a rough first message — is itself a discipleship pathway. Drawing on the example of Peter and the parable of the talents, both speakers make the case that failure, when held within a relational and gospel-centered environment, is not a liability but a feature. The goal, Sam insists, is not a factory producing excellent widgets, but a family forming disciples — which is slower, messier, and ultimately far more faithful. Show Notes Guest: Sam Luce, Director of ChildDiscipleship.com and veteran children’s ministry leader with nearly 30 years at one church Key Topics Covered Sam’s chapter in Forming Faith and the core argument behind it The “Disney ditch” vs. the “Mr. Rogers ditch” — understanding both extremes Why safety, fun, and relational connection are not opposites of gospel clarity How the seeker-sensitive movement got at least one thing right The danger of building ministry around metrics of attendance rather than Christlikeness Why excellence-at-all-costs cuts kids out of the very process that forms them Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark as case studies in formative failure Practical ways to welcome kids (and volunteers) into authentic, imperfect service How leaders identify and name God-given gifts in the children they shepherd The fruit of the Spirit as a more faithful measure of ministry effectiveness than production quality Resources Mentioned Forming Faith (chapter by Sam Luce) ChildDiscipleship.com Dallas Willard (referenced regarding natural Christlikeness) Reflection Questions for Ministry Leaders Is your ministry currently leaning toward the Disney ditch or the Mr. Rogers ditch — and what would it look like to course-correct? What metrics are you using to measure ministry health? Are they measuring attendance or Christlikeness? Are there kids or volunteers in your ministry who have never been given the opportunity to fail — and therefore never truly given the opportunity to grow? Who in your ministry do you know well enough to name their God-given gifts and invite them into service? The post Excellence and Experience appeared first on Child Discipleship.

  5. May 27

    Relevance and Relationship

    Episode Summary In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast, Matt Markins and Mike Handler explore the tension between relevance and relationship in children’s ministry. They argue that while relevance — being culturally connected and contextually appropriate — has its place, the church has often over-invested in making ministry “cool” or Disney-like, chasing a shifting target that yields little evidence of producing lasting faith. Drawing on Brett McCracken’s Hipster Christianityand insights from Mark Sayers, they make the case that cool Christianity is ultimately an exercise in futility — sowing the seeds of its own obsolescence when it becomes the primary driver of ministry methodology. The real accelerant for child discipleship, they contend, is relationship. Citing Barna Group research from Children’s Ministry in a New Reality, they highlight that only about 40% of children in U.S. churches have a meaningful relationship with a caring adult outside their parents — yet those who do show dramatically higher rates of Bible engagement, gospel understanding, and church belonging. Supported further by Harvard research on resilience in children who experienced trauma, Matt and Mike conclude that loving, consistent adult relationships are the core conduit to thriving faith — and that the church’s future map of child discipleship must weight relationship far above relevance. Show Notes The difference between universal relevance (language, culture) and fleeting relevance (trends, aesthetics) The “make church like Disney” trend that emerged around 2010 — its good motivations and its shadow side The concept of contextualization vs. enculturation: the gospel can be contextualized into culture without the church simply becoming the culture Brett McCracken’s warning: cool Christianity risks shrinking faith to the level of a consumer commodity The principle: what you win them with is what you win them to Barna Group data from Children’s Ministry in a New Reality: only ~40% of children in U.S. churches have a meaningful relationship with a caring adult at their church — and those who do show dramatically stronger faith outcomes across every measured category Harvard Center for the Developing Child research: the single unifying variable among children who thrived after trauma was consistent access to a loving, caring adult The call to shift ministry investment from protection and entertainment to protection and formation Resources Mentioned Forming Faith: Discipling the Next Generation in a Post-Christian Culture — Matt Markins & Mike Handler Hipster Christianity: When Church and Cool Collide — Brett McCracken (2010) Children’s Ministry in a New Reality — Barna Group & Awana John Tyson — referenced from Child Discipleship Forum 2025  Mark Sayers — Pastor, Red Church, Melbourne, Australia Child Discipleship Forum (CDF) — gatherings at the crossroads of children, church, and culture | gospelkids.org (2026 in-person sold out; online available) Key Takeaway Relevance is a tool in the ministry toolbelt — not the foundation. There is no substitute for authentic relationship. When a child is seen, known, and connected to a loving adult, they are connected to the Jesus who sees, knows, and loves them too. The post Relevance and Relationship appeared first on Child Discipleship.

    31 min

  6. May 20

    “Are We (Only) Having Fun?”

    Summary In this episode, Matt Markins and Mike Handler discuss the role of fun and entertainment in children’s ministry. They are careful to say that fun is good and necessary. Kids should laugh, enjoy church, and want to come back. But the episode asks whether children’s ministry has sometimes made fun the main measure of success rather than discipleship. Matt traces part of this tendency to the church growth movement and attractional models of ministry. In that framework, churches often removed barriers so people would come, stay, and return. That influenced children’s ministry, where entertainment became a common way to attract families and keep kids engaged. The concern is not that fun is wrong, but that fun can become overemphasized when the deeper goal should be lasting faith in Jesus. The episode contrasts entertainment with engagement. Entertainment puts something in front of children. Engagement invites children into discipleship. Mike gives practical examples, such as small group confession, helping kids learn how to talk about sin and forgiveness, and giving children opportunities to serve, greet, pass out supplies, run tech, or help younger kids. These practices move kids from being passive spectators to active participants. The main takeaway is that children rise to the level of expectation placed before them. If churches expect little more than attendance and enjoyment, kids may learn that church is mainly about having fun. But if churches invite them into meaningful participation, service, confession, Scripture, and gospel-centered community, they begin to see church as a place where they are formed as disciples of Jesus. Practical Next Steps Audit your children’s ministry. Ask how much of the weekly experience is built around entertainment and how much is built around engagement, formation, Scripture, prayer, service, and gospel response. Change the parent pickup question. Instead of only asking, “Did you have fun?” encourage parents to ask: – “What did you learn about Jesus today?” – “What is one thing you heard?” – “What is one thing that stood out to you?” – “How did you see someone serve today?” Invite kids to serve. Give children age-appropriate roles such as greeting, helping with supplies, welcoming new kids, reading Scripture, assisting with tech, or helping younger children. Create space for real spiritual formation. In small groups, help children learn how to talk about sin, forgiveness, prayer, and following Jesus in everyday life. Aim for formation, not perfection. Let kids participate even when it is messy. Jesus formed His disciples by inviting them into the work, not by keeping them on the sidelines. The post “Are We (Only) Having Fun?” appeared first on Child Discipleship.

    35 min

  7. May 13

    Moving Beyond “Bible Light” to Biblical Literacy

    In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast, Matt Markins and Mike Handler explore the difference between teaching children “Bible light” and helping them grow in true biblical literacy. They argue that many churches unintentionally teach Bible stories in ways that are accurate, but incomplete. When Bible teaching focuses on virtues, morals, and good character without rooting them in the gospel, children can begin to see Christianity as a call to be better rather than a call to trust Jesus. Good character matters, but it is not the goal on its own. It is the fruit of a life transformed by Christ. Using stories like Nehemiah, David and Goliath, and the feeding of the five thousand, Matt and Mike show how Bible lessons can drift into moralism when Jesus is no longer at the center. The better path is biblical literacy, Bible engagement, and helping children understand the Bible as one unified story. That is why this episode emphasizes the four-word framework of creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. These four words help children see that Scripture is not a collection of disconnected moral stories, but one grand story centered on Jesus. Matt and Mike also share practical ways to build Bible engagement through Scripture songs, children’s Bibles, reading the Bible aloud, and gospel-rich conversations at home and at church. This episode is a call to move beyond shallow moral lessons and help children see that every page of Scripture points to Jesus. Show Notes Better Gospel-Centered Questions How does this story reveal our need for Jesus? How does this story show that Jesus is the true hero? How does this story fit within creation, fall, redemption, and restoration? Practical Ways to Build Bible Engagement Sing Scripture songs with kids Read the Bible aloud at home and in church Use children’s Bibles like The Jesus Storybook Bible Teach from a physical Bible so children can see and value God’s Word Share personally with children what God is teaching you through Scripture Resources Mentioned Forming Faith: Discipling the Next Generation in a Post-Christian Culture The Story We Tell Our Children: Gospel Formation in a World of Counterfeit Imitation Streetlights Seeds Family Worship Yancy Doorpost Songs The Rizers The Jesus Storybook Bible The post Moving Beyond “Bible Light” to Biblical Literacy appeared first on Child Discipleship.

    35 min

  8. May 6

    It Might Be Time to End Children’s Ministry

    In this episode, Matt Markins and Mike Handler tackle a provocative idea: what if the church needs to move from a children’s ministry mindset to a child discipleship mindset? Matt explains that after years of Awana research, one of the clearest insights is that many churches are still building ministry around activities and methods rather than around the deeper objectives that actually form lasting faith. Programs like VBS, Sunday school, small groups, and midweek ministry are not the problem. The real question is what those methods are designed to produce. Matt argues that “children’s ministry” often becomes shorthand for tactics, programming, and logistics, while “child discipleship” focuses on outcomes, theology, and philosophy. He uses the example of Awana Clubs and VBS to show that the same curriculum or ministry model can produce very different fruit depending on the underlying culture and objectives. In other words, the issue is not merely what a church does, but why and how it does it. To illustrate this, Matt introduces the metaphor of the old map and the new map. He describes seeing a sixteenth-century map and imagining how grateful we would be for what those mapmakers accomplished with limited tools and knowledge. At the same time, no one would use that map for modern navigation. In the same way, churches should honor the ministries of the past while also asking whether some of the assumptions behind children’s ministry need to be updated in light of new research and clearer biblical-philosophical insight. That leads to the heart of the episode: Awana’s child discipleship philosophy. Matt summarizes the findings this way: child discipleship is a biblical practice designed to form lasting faith by helping kids belong to God and His kingdom, believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, and become like Him and walk in His ways through the power of the Holy Spirit. These three dimensions, often called the 3Bs—belong, believe, become—are presented as the three primary factors that tend to form lasting faith when they are all present over time in the life of a child. Mike helps unpack this by comparing the 3Bs to NASA’s moon mission. Just as NASA had to focus on a few critical objectives rather than many scattered priorities, churches also need clear disciple-making objectives. The conversation makes the case that belonging is highly relational, believing is deeply scriptural, and becoming is experiential and life-on-life. The goal is not just a busy children’s ministry, but a ministry that helps children root their identity and faith in Jesus. The episode closes with a pastoral challenge. Children are always being formed by something—social media, peers, cultural narratives, or other communities—so the church must be equally intentional. Matt and Mike urge parents, pastors, and church leaders not to abandon ministry activities, but to align them around the larger work of disciple-making. Their conclusion is clear: the church should not settle for activity-driven ministry when it can build toward lasting faith through belonging, believing, and becoming. Show Notes Main theme Move from an activity-centered view of children’s ministry to an outcome-centered, disciple-making vision of child discipleship. Key ideas from the episode Awana’s research raised a crucial question: what if we changed our thinking from children’s ministry to child discipleship? Programs like VBS, Sunday school, youth group, and volunteer systems are valuable methods, but they are not the end goal. The same ministry model can produce different results depending on the culture and objectives underneath it. The “old map/new map” metaphor challenges churches to evaluate whether inherited ministry assumptions are still sufficient. Awana’s core child discipleship philosophy centers on three objectives: belong, believe, become. Belonging is relational, believing is scriptural, and becoming is experiential. Lasting faith is most likely to grow when all three are present over time in a child’s life. Children are already being formed by culture, so the church must be intentional in its own formative work. Memorable ideas Children’s ministry is not wrong, but it can become too method-driven if it loses sight of outcomes. The goal is not fewer ministry activities, but better ministry alignment. “Belong, believe, become” gives churches a framework for evaluating every program and practice. The post It Might Be Time to End Children’s Ministry appeared first on Child Discipleship.

    34 min
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About

The Child Discipleship Podcast is a conversation dedicated to anyone who cares about the future of the faith. Melanie Hester leads listeners through conversations happening within the world of children’s ministry, with insights from thought leaders and front-line servants in the local church and throughout the child advocacy space. We believe this generation of kids can be the greatest generation of disciples this world has ever seen, but they need loving caring adults like you to help make that happen. New episodes drop every Thursday, listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts!

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