Stories of Women in Archaeology (Episode 113)

Dr. Catherine Cooper speaks with Suzy Eskenazi and Dr. Nicole Herzog about their book "With Grit and Determination: A Century of Change for Women in Great Basin and American Archaeology"

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Dr. Catherine Cooper: My name's Dr. Catherine Cooper. I am a research scientist at NCPTT. I am here with...

Suzy Eskenazi: Suzy Eskenazi. I'm a principal investigator and archeologist at SWCA Environmental Consultants in Salt Lake City.

Dr. Nicole Herzog: I'm Dr. Nicole Herzog. I'm an assistant professor at the University of Denver.

Dr. Catherine Cooper: Today we're going to be speaking about your recent book, With Grit and Determination: A Century of Change for Women in Great Basin and American Archeology. I would love to know what the impetus for putting this book together was, and how did you approach this project?

Suzy Eskenazi: Really, it started at the 2016 Great Basin Anthropological Conference in Reno. Nicole and I were in the book room. I was waiting in line to get my book signed by Dr. Kay Fowler at the University of Utah press table. And I was speaking with her husband and some other people around me in line, and I just started wondering why, in those meetings they're always giving out awards to men, often the same men over and over. And we were surrounded by accomplished women in that book room, and I thought, why don't we hear more about these women and their stories? And the time was right, and I saw Nicole, and ran over to her, said, “We need to do this!” And she agreed.

Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yep. Good retelling. Yes. It was like an aha moment. Yes. Maybe we could create a platform so that that could happen. And so Suzy proposed that we organize a symposium for the coming conference. And so, we really got to work, just brainstorming about who we could invite. And we were dreaming big. All the most amazing people we could think of, and we're like, do you think they'd do it? And then, because Suzy is so well connected and she is a fabulous communicator, she reached out to all these people, and they all of course agreed, which was really shocking to us.

Suzy Eskenazi: And I have to say that I have always been interested in the story behind the story. So, we know so much of their research, and their academic, and CRM experience, but how did they get to be where they are and why? And what are all those roadblocks, and major accomplishments they've had? And so we were just so delighted that a lot of these women that we asked, they were all just very modest and couldn't believe that whatever they would have to share would really be of interest to anyone. That really shocked me, as well.

Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. We knew that the paths to professionalism for women were different than for men, but we didn't feel like that was articulated anywhere. And we just wanted to hear people's personal stories. And when we contacted people, they were like, well, do you want me to talk about my research? Or do you want me to talk about my life? Or what do you want me to do? And we did ask them if they would be willing to talk about their personal narratives or their paths, and of course, that incorporates their research. And then it was a packed room, and it was very much of interest.

Suzy Eskenazi: I know that symposium in 2018 was the most well attended symposium of the conference. So we did a good thing.

Dr. Catherine Cooper: And then you had that symposium session turned into a book.

Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah, it was almost immediately afterwards. One of our participants, Reba Rauch, she was the acquisitions editor at The Press. And so of course, she was immediately on board and said, yes. And so we just went from there almost immediately after the symposium ended. We did have a few, at least two that I can think of, that were in the symposium that did not contribute to the book, but we had another woman who contributed to the book who wasn't in the symposium.

Dr. Catherine Cooper: What are some of your most memorable interactions around the book, since it's come out?

Suzy Eskenazi: We had a pretty great virtual book signing. It came out during COVID, which was unfortunate. I thought that went really well. And then, we also were at the last Great Basin Conference in Las Vegas this past fall. And so, we were able to do a virtual book signing, which had a very long-

Dr. Nicole Herzog: No, in-person book signing.

Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah, that's what I meant. In-person. Sorry.

Dr. Nicole Herzog: With real people.

Suzy Eskenazi: It was just so fantastic. People brought their books that they'd already bought, and then we sold out at the event.

Dr. Nicole Herzog: And it’s fun just having random people approach and say, "Oh wow. I read that book, and it really meant a lot to me."

hat has also been a very cool experience, just hearing from people that you don't know, but who are reaching out to you to say, "I was at that symposium and it was just amazing," or, "I read the book and it was just amazing." And so, that part has also been super rewarding, just to have strangers reach out to you and say, "This thing you did was meaningful to me."

Suzy Eskenazi: Like you.

Dr. Nicole Herzog: Yeah. I think that was one of the biggest surprises for me is, to just hear how circuitous peoples' paths were.

The places where people started from and the pit stops they made along the way, and the way that they got engaged in one thing and that took them in one direction, and then they circled back around. It's very affirming to know that there is not one straight path, that all these really successful people took all of these really interesting paths to get where they are. And that was another outcome of the book that was really special, because people did elaborate on their talks in the books, so a lot of the chapters were extended versions. And so we did get greater amount of detail in the written works that was also pretty revealing and a little window into the lives of all of these awesome women.

Vulnerability and sharing difficult experiences. Charlotte Beck's chapter in the book was for me, just one of the most powerful things I've read about persevering through harassment, through mental health issues, through all of these things that impact our lives, but that impact our careers and that people from the outside can't see. When you meet Charlotte, God, she is just the most cheerful, kind, sweet, amazing, charming, wonderful person, and you might not know that she had been through such harrowing experiences that were very hard to overcome. And so I think it's so special that she was brave enough to share that story, because I want people to read those kind of stories too, and to know that these things can happen to you and you can make it through, you can have the support that you need, and that again, you're not alone. That was just so moving to read her chapter, and I'm just so grateful to her for being willing to put her experiences into writing and be so vulnerable.

Suzy Eskenazi: Yeah. I would agree, that was a very intense chapter to write, I'm sure. And I really appreciated how vulnerable all of the women were in their chapters too. I think it took a lot for some of these women to just be able to write about themselves and not just what they do for a living. I really feel honored, that they said yes to share all of their vulnerability, and their experiences with us in a very public way. We are all better for it.

Dr. Catherine Cooper: What would you want readers or people who were at that symposium to take away from this book, from those talks, and what do you want them to do with what they've learned?

Suzy Eskenazi: I think one of the main points that I really took home was the importance of mentorship and support. And maybe that's because that's one of my personal interests, but I don't feel like anybody could have gotten to where they are without somebody pushing them to be who they could be, and recognize their talents. Even when that meant that some women had to be married to a man, to be able to go in the field, at least in all of these cases, their husbands were very supportive and provided that path for them. I would just love for this book to touch people in that way, and move them into that supportive mentoring place, so that we can help raise each other up and continue with the future generations.

Dr. Nicole Herzog: I agree. I think the mentorship for both of us was the biggest theme that stood out in all of the writings that are in the book. When Suzy and I were asking people to join us, we tried to ask people from all different sectors of work. We thought it was important to have people who worked doing private consulting, people who worked at agencies, people who did research archeology, people who worked in museums, a whole range of people doing all kinds of different work. So I think one of the really cool things that emerges from the book is to see how many ways you can be successful in this job, and how many opportunities are really out there for you. So I hope that anybody who has this idea, that feels like it's maybe out of reach or in left field or something, sees themselves somewhere in that book.

And there's just a lot of different ways to be successful, and to be happy, and to be supported. I hope that people see in the book that they can do any of those things and that also they could come from someplace that didn't feel like the right fit, especially I'm thinking of Charlotte Beck. Boy, I started out doing this thing and it was just the wrong thing. I was just on the wrong path, and I just found it within myself to change gears and to do what I was actually passionate about. And then to be wildly successfu