The Messy City Podcast

Kevin Klinkenberg
  • 4.9 (12)
  • DESIGN
The Messy City Podcast Podcast

Embracing change, uncertainty and local initiative for our cities and towns kevinklinkenberg.substack.com

  1. SEP 3

    How Does a Small Developer Actually Make Money?

    Monte Anderson of Neighborhood Evolution and Options Real Estate in Duncanville, Texas joins me to talk about extremely practical matters: making money in real estate. That is, as a small developer, how is it actually done? What are the pros and cons of different approaches, such as buying and holding vs selling? We start this by discussing a YouTube video from The Real Estate God. Yes, that’s the real channel. Titled, “The best way to 3x your money in 2024,” the video is a good jumping off point for how to structure deals in an ideal world. And, it goes over the differences between general partners and limited partners. Monte talks about why nothing ever works as quick as he thinks it should, and the realities of development fees. We discuss the challenges, but also the joys, of working in development. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Episode Transcript: Kevin K (00:01.733) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. I'm Kevin Klinkenberg. Got our returning champion, Monte Anderson in the house here today. Monte, it's always great to see you and talk to you. Where are you in Dallas? Are you roaming around the country somewhere? Monte Anderson (00:16.022) Yeah, I am in Dallas today. Glad to be here with you, but I am in Dallas. I'll be in Lafayette, Louisiana tomorrow morning and Elkhart, Indiana next week. So lot of traveling coming up, but I'm home for this afternoon. It is. It is. We've been going down there for, this is our second year. And so yeah, there's a lot of good food down there. Yeah. Kevin K (00:26.257) Cool, Lafayette's a really cool town. Kevin K (00:39.449) Yeah, was going to say amazing food, fun people, it be a great time. Monte Anderson (00:43.647) Yeah, they are fun people. lot of entrepreneurial spirit down there, know, they've had to do a lot with a lot of things against them, know, hurricanes and, you all the things that you've got in that part of the country. Kevin K (00:53.627) Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Well, guess depending on where you are, you've got something. like we don't have hurricanes, but we've got tornadoes and floods. Monte Anderson (01:06.668) Yeah, yep, that's right. There's something always out there, the unknowns. Kevin K (01:10.245) Yeah, I know. I think I texted you a couple of weeks ago, we were up in Dubuque, Iowa, where I know you're also doing some work and they were dealing with the Mississippi is flooding this year. It's been very, very high. And so they've had some flooding in different portions. So in fact, we were going to take like one of their riverboat cruises and we couldn't do it because the river is too high. Monte Anderson (01:28.705) my. Yeah. my, that's because that town is right in between the river and the bluffs. The downtown is right there in the valley, if you will, between the two hills. Yeah. Kevin K (01:37.67) Yeah. Kevin K (01:42.063) Yeah. It's really cool. had not spent a lot of, I've driven through, I'd driven through before, but I hadn't really spent any time there. And it's really a neat, neat little town with like incredible bones and, just a really pretty setting there on the river. Monte Anderson (01:52.802) Yeah. Yeah, the great thing is it doesn't have any major interstates that go through it. Kevin K (01:59.569) But they had a lot of urban renewal. I'll say that. For a small town, boy, did they have a lot of urban renewal that was done to them. anyway, Monty, I wanted to talk to you today. We were exchanging some emails. I sometimes subscribe to these just kind of random YouTube channels or blogs or whatever that touch on real estate or design or planning or whatever. Monte Anderson (02:03.544) Yes. Monte Anderson (02:07.554) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin K (02:27.953) this is one, that I shared with yo

    59 min

  2. AUG 27

    Cities and Parents: Let's Get Real About What Matters

    Truth is, I wish we talked a lot more about making cities as kid-friendly as possible. The topic is often overlooked. That’s why it was fascinating to see Derek Thompson’s article, “The Urban Family Exodus Is a Warning For Progressives” get so much traction. He clearly touched a nerve. Today, I give my take in this solo podcast. As a father, as someone that loves cities, and someone that is in fact deeply concerned about the trendlines, I share my observations. This one gets a little personal. Ground I cover includes: 1. How parents really feel about their kids 2. What life in American cities is really like 3. How things are different now from the historic norm in the US 4. What parents really prioritize, not what we wish them to prioritize 5. What cities can do 6. How cities *could* be amazing Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Episode Transcript: Kevin K (00:01.824) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg flying solo today, doing an episode in a way that I've done occasionally in the past, but I haven't done a little while. I've had some amazing guests. I've got some more coming up and I love talking to people other than myself primarily in this gig, but it is fun once in a while to just riff on something that's in the news or on my mind. And that's what I'm going to do today. I do want to take a second and say thank you to all of you who are listening and following. The podcast has really grown a lot in audience the last six months. And I really appreciate everybody tuning in. And if you get a chance, please hit that like or follow button. Leave me a review on your podcast platform, especially if you're on Apple. Apple is the biggest podcast platform by far. So if you're listening through Apple podcasts, I'd really appreciate it if you gave the show a rating. All of that stuff helps get attraction and grow the audience. And the bigger the audience, the better I will be able to be at providing you all with really good programming and interesting guests and the ability to try to help us all out as we navigate how to improve our cities, how to improve our own situation. if you're a, a small developer or an aspiring small developer, try to become one. if you are someone who's just interested in cities and planning to do whatever you can do to make your community a better place to live and, and, help us, help us all out in our own little world. So that's the point. That's what I'm trying to do here. And, I hope you enjoy it judging by the numbers. A lot of you are enjoying it. So that's really cool. And, it's, It's definitely a lot of fun for me. So with that, I want to talk about an article that's made the rounds a lot lately and a topic that I've seen discussed in social media and elsewhere. And it really has to do with the subject of families and big cities. And a lot of this most, the most recent flurry of discussion happened at Kevin K (02:25.002) as the result of an article in the Atlantic by Derek Thompson titled, The Urban Family Exodus is a Warning for Progressives. And I'm going to commit a cardinal sin here today where I'm going to talk about this topic without having read the actual article. So forgive me for that, but I will say I have read many, many articles on this topic. And what I really want to talk about today is just kind of my own experience as a father, as a parent, and my own interaction and evolution on this issue. Because I think there's an awful lot in the context of this subject that we just don't talk very much about. Especially those of us who are in this tiny, tiny niche of people who call themselves urbanists, who care about cities, who care about development in cities. There's an awful lot tied into this issu

    48 min

  3. AUG 20

    Exploring the Mechanics of an Architect’s First Small Development

    We travel to the beautiful Pacific Northwest this week to talk with architect Cary Westerbeck. Cary lives and works in Bothell, Washington, a northern suburb of Seattle. He traces his path from being a bicycle mechanic to architect, developer and even Planning Commission member. One of the really cool things about this episode is hearing Cary take me step by step through his process to build the Fir Street Lofts. This size of project, 3 apartments and one retail space, is the kind of project that should be within reach of many aspiring developers. Cary talks about how he conceived it, designed it, financed it, and general contracted it as well. If I could construct a curriculum for architects, I’d have them all listen to this episode to learn how much more is possible than just being a hired gun for others. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Transcript: Kevin K (00:01.132) Welcome back to the Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. This week we're off to the Pacific Northwest to talk with another small scale developer and urbanist kind of guy who's done some really cool work and who I haven't really had a chance to talk to a lot in person, but our paths cross all the time, including when this one drops, my most recent guest will have been Jim Hyde from the Small Scale Developer Forums and And my guest today, Kerry Westerbeck, has been very involved in the Small Scale Developer Forum. there's kind of a fun alignment there that I'm looking forward to talking about. But anyway, Kerry, welcome to the podcast. It's great to see you. Cary (00:43.968) Thank you, Kevin. Nice to be invited. Great to be here. Kevin K (00:46.786) Well, again, it's a situation where we just know so many overlapping people. It makes it feel like the world is really small. Cary (00:53.226) Indeed. It really does. There's so many connections, whether it's social media or blogs or podcasts. Like, hey, I know that person and they know that person and all these points begin to overlap. It's fun. Kevin K (01:08.952) Yeah, and I know there's more than like 20 people doing small scale development in the whole country, but for whatever reason that like circle we travel, and it of feels like there's like 20. So I don't know. Cary (01:17.162) Yeah. Cary (01:20.884) No, it's true. It's the same bunch of us kind of keep getting hit up. Maybe we're the ones who'll enjoy talking about it. Others are just doing it and being quiet. I don't know. Kevin K (01:29.816) Could be, could be. There's a whole lot of people who just, you know, proceed on in the background and do really cool stuff. So anyway, Carrie is in the Seattle Metro area and is doing some really neat stuff up there and has for a long time. And I wanted to talk obviously about some of the projects you've been doing, but you also have a really interesting background getting into this. Cary (01:36.212) That's right. Kevin K (01:56.236) that our mutual friend, John Anderson, kind of clued us into. And I wonder if you want to start by talking a little bit about like your own journey to being where you are now. I think we're probably around the same age, ballpark. so, yeah. And so, you know, by the time you hit our age, you've probably had two or three different lives, it feels like, or certainly professional lives. And there's lot of different paths that people take. So let's talk a bit about where you started out. Cary (02:03.541) Yeah. Cary (02:09.865) early 50s. Cary (02:17.214) Yes. Yes. Cary (02:25.974) Sure, no, I think that's a really good way putting it. I have a lot of friends who are five to 10 years older and some of them didn't know me when I was younger. I do joke, I've had many lives, I've lived many lives because I was a bicycle mechanic for much of the 9

    1h 6m

  4. AUG 13

    Jim Heid and the Small-Scale Developer Forum

    Abby Newsham and I have some fun with a joint podcast this week, as we host Jim Heid. Jim runs the Small Scale Developer Forum, and has a new book called “Building Small: A Toolkit for Real Estate Entrepreneurs, Civic Leaders, and Great Communities.” He spent some time in Kansas City while preparing to host his next forum here in October. Registration is open now! Jim is a wealth of great information for emerging developers. A landscape architect by trade, he came to development mid-career. He shares his story about why and how he did this, working as a small developer in the California context, and why he thinks real estate should be the noble profession to solve a lot of our ills of today. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 0m

  5. AUG 6

    Missouri's Favorite Topic: KC vs St Louis

    This week, we take a little different tack and explore a time-worn Missouri rivalry: Kansas City vs St Louis. I invite two born-and-raised St Louisans, Abby Newsham and Jason Carter-Solomon to explore what is working and what is not with these two cities and metros. These two regions dominate this part of the Midwest, but have entirely different cultures and growth trajectories. If you go back far enough to Joel Garreau’s “Nine Nations of North America” you may remember that he labeled Kansas City as the capital of the “Breadbasket” region, and had St Louis as a border city between the Breadbasket and “Dixie.” Today, Kansas City is growing with sizeable numbers for a Midwestern city, and St Louis is fairly stagnant. What gives? Why is this so, since St Louis has such obvious assets? We explore this, as well as the horror that is St Louis-style pizza. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 0m

  6. JUL 30

    Code Reform is not just about Zoning

    There’s so many acronyms in this episode, it might make your head spin. We talk about IRC, IBC, IEBC, ADA, FHA and more. John Anderson and I don’t do this to punish you, or make you feel confused. But, it’s critical to understanding the world of how buildings actually get built. John is usually good for at least a couple of one-liners, and this one is my favorite in this episode: Real estate development is a black box full of money and villains. You’ll learn in this episode why requiring sprinklers in small and middle-scale building isn’t necessary, and how it makes housing less affordable. We talk about single-stair reform, and understanding how the Fair Housing Act is a very different animal than the Americans with Disabilities Act. For more from John, check out his blog. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Transcript of Episode: Kevin K (00:01.81) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. You know, we spent a lot of time in the world of whatever you want to call it, urbanism, planning, design, urban design, talking about zoning reform, especially for what we kind of call missing middle housing and the need to reform zoning codes to enable the production of sort of smaller scale. housing. And so I've had a number of episodes on that. We've talked about it. We'll continue to talk about it. But one thing we really haven't talked much about at all, and that's often overlooked, is the need for reform to building codes and building code and development approval processes generally with local governments. So my friend John Anderson started an email thread the other day. that, kind of dug into this issue and like a lot of John's emails, it was long and thorough and a little bit grumpy. and so I thought John and I should just, talk about it, because there's a lot of really great stuff here that I'm not sure that people think about, terribly much, especially if you're one of those people who wants to do small scale, development. whether new construction or rehab, especially for new construction, there's just a lot of other things to think about that you're going to have to consider and other things potentially to work on with your local government to try to reform. So that's a very long introduction to say, welcome John, how you doing? R. John Anderson (01:44.944) Good, I'm good. I'm glad that emails are really thin medium, so it's hard to get grumpiness to come across at the right amplitude. Kevin K (01:55.902) always comes across, you know, it's okay. But I've known you long enough to be able to even decipher it when it's kind of a little more subtle. R. John Anderson (02:06.724) Well, I'll tell you one thing that's. Kevin K (02:08.766) And then there are times that you and Gary Brewer go at it and it's not subtle at all. R. John Anderson (02:13.468) hi. I, it feels like, having a conversation with someone in Quebec where I just don't, our experience is so different. The world's way operator so far apart. It's it. I feel like we're too, you know, Neanderthal tribes meeting in the dark searching for a common word for fire without success. You know, so. Kevin K (02:37.63) Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. R. John Anderson (02:41.904) No, Fog thinks small house 500 square feet. No, Og thinks small house 3000 square feet. Kevin K (02:47.646) Exactly. $2 million is a reasonable budget for any new house, Yeah. R. John Anderson (02:52.046) Right. And you ought to have it specially designed by an architect because that's the world that he's operating in. Kevin K (02:58.812) That's okay. We love, we love Gary too. He's a brilliant designer. but, he long operated in a different stratosphere in terms of architecture. So John, let's, let's get into this a little bit. I think

    1h 0m

  7. JUL 23

    A Conversation with Joe Minicozzi

    There’s a lot of takeaways from any conversation with Joe Minicozzi, or one of his many public presentations. Here’s mine today: omnipotent forces didn’t create our current systems, whether we are talking about zoning, traffic engineering or tax assessment. Or, in fact, just about anything in life. These were all created by fallible humans. We can, and should, change them. It’s our duty, our responsibility. Your local tax system, and your local zoning code were not handed down to you by Moses from the mountain. Joe Minicozzi of Urban 3 is one of those rare people that just has a knack for communicating complex ideas. If you haven’t seen one of his presentations, run out and do so. Here’s a sample from Not Just Bikes, and one from Strong Towns. Today, we talk in audio form instead of video, but I suspect you’ll enjoy it just the same. Since this is a blog, too, here’s a few visual references for fun: Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Text Transcript: Kevin K (00:01.231) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. You know, one of the joys that I've had in being involved with the New Urbanism Movement and the Congress for New Urbanism for many, many years is you get to meet and know people who take a lot of issues that we talk about and care about and completely reframe them and make them much more interesting and accessible and understandable, I think, to a larger audience. And there's been a number of people who who've done that or I've seen that happen in the course of my career. And one of those is joining me here today, live from Asheville, North Carolina, Joe Minicozzi. Joe, how's it going, Joe Minicozzi (00:42.018) Great, thanks for having Kevin K (00:43.771) Well, it's fun. I've been wanting to do this one for a little while and it's you're a busy guy and I'm really glad you made some time. Joe, you may know he's often had his work featured in Strong Towns. He's a regular on the speaking circuit with his firm, Urban 3, and he's really developed a unique approach to kind of explaining our built environment in graphic and financial terms I think has changed a lot of people's thinking about things. And we're going to get to some of that. Joe has, one of the cool things, Joe, is you're working all over the country. So there's always something new to talk about. But before we get there, I do think it's interesting for people to understand your background because like somebody coming upon you today and one of your presentations, they might think, he's like this kind of urban guru guy. What does that mean? Or he's like a financial guru guy, but you're actually, you're an architect. Correct? Not licensed, but educated. Yes. Where did... I don't think... One thing I never knew, Joe, like, where did you grow Joe Minicozzi (01:44.476) Well, not licensed. Can say that. Educated, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so... Go Joe Minicozzi (01:56.116) upstate New York, Rust Belt, little town called Rome, New York. Kevin K (01:57.445) Ruffio. cool, that's a cool town. Joe Minicozzi (02:05.282) Why do you say that? That it's not cool. When I was Kevin K (02:07.983) Well, I mean, there's some cool built fabric there. No? Joe Minicozzi (02:11.256) No. When I was a kid, they tore down most of downtown. It was literally one of the largest urban renewal projects per capita in the entire United States. And they blew up, I don't know, like eight to 10 blocks of downtown and built a wooden fort. There's a revolutionary wooden fort in what used to be our downtown. Google Rome, New York and go into the downtown, you'll see it. Kevin K (02:39.715) OK, I must be thinking of pictures I've seen of a different upstate New York downtown then or something. Joe Minicozzi (02:43.288) Oh no, no, it's, didn't, bu

    1h 5m

  8. JUL 9

    Planning Takes Center Stage in Kalamazoo

    I’m not often left speechless when I’m interviewing guests, but for a few moments here I struggled to digest what Rebekah Kik was telling me about Kalamazoo. If you’re a planner, you must listen to this episode. This is a truly inspirational effort in a city that doesn’t get the limelight. For a city of about 75,000 people in a quiet corner of Michigan, the staff and community have done amazing work. The story is mostly about a planning effort called Imagine Kalamazoo, which sounds like every garden-variety planning effort everywhere. But, the way it came together and what it produced in short order is truly unique. Learn how a plan executed at a high level helped attract corporate funding on the back side that will help the day-to-day livability of the city. Along the way, we trace Rebekah’s career from a small college in Michigan, Andrews University, to working as an architect and planner. She talks about how her drawing skills helped her survive the Great Recession, and how her tenacity is helping her home town get better. I’ve said before, and I’ll stand by it, that the most innovative work in local governments happens in smaller cities and towns. Kalamazoo definitely rings the bell for that theory - accomplishing the kinds of successful efforts that we so rarely see in large cities. More to come on that at a future date. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Episode Transcript: Kevin K (00:00.802) Welcome back to the Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. Sometimes you, over the course of your career, you get to know people and see them and see, watch their careers evolve along with yours. And if you're fortunate, you can see people, meet people when they're young and see them grow into all sorts of new positions and do interesting work. And today I'm fortunate to have a guest that's a little bit like that. We have... The assistant city manager for Kalamazoo, Michigan, Rebecca Kick here. Rebecca, how you doing? Rebekah Kik (00:39.082) I'm really well Kevin, thank you. Kevin K (00:41.666) I was just thinking earlier, I think I met you originally when you were a student at Andrews, is that right? Rebekah Kik (00:47.594) That's correct. We got to intersect our paths when I was on charrette with Professor Philip Bess. Kevin K (00:58.594) Yeah, yeah. So, and Phil, we've had Phil here on the show before. He'll probably do so again, I'm sure, especially now that he's in retirement and his schedule is going to open up a little bit more. But yeah, those were some fun days that seemed like about a million years ago. Rebekah Kik (01:17.194) It really was. Mostly because I used to just chase Philip at his heels. I knew he was doing cool things. I did. I just knew he was doing cool things and I wanted to know desperately what he was doing and I begged him to take me. where he was going. I told him I would do anything. I would fetch coffee. I would make copies. You know, get lunches. I would do whatever he needed me to do. I would be that gopher, that little sponge, because I knew he was hanging around with cool people and I wanted to learn and know and do. And I believe that charrette Kevin K (01:48.61) You Rebekah Kik (02:14.633) was in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And it was in the Hartside neighborhood. And that was the first time I had ever heard, I believe at that time, we were calling them traditional neighborhood codes or they weren't called form -based codes yet. They were regulating plans or something like that. They were much more technical still at that point. But they were... Kevin K (02:16.609) Yep. Yeah, that was all like early days stuff for new urbanism and coding and all that. So let's just go back to that a little bit, Rebecca. I just, I think it's intere

    1h 7m
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4.9
out of 5
12 Ratings

About

Embracing change, uncertainty and local initiative for our cities and towns kevinklinkenberg.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    Kevin Klinkenberg
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2024
  • Episodes
    63
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Kevin Klinkenberg
  • Show Website
    The Messy City Podcast

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