We're Not Marketers

Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts
  • 5.0 (10)
  • Marketing
  • Updated Weekly

B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either. What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers. The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door. Stop being overlooked and start listening. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

  1. 3d ago

    We Spent Three Years Hiding From Dave Gerhardt at His Own Event

    Eric Holland and Gab Bujold recorded this one on a deck in Stowe, Vermont, in the middle of Drive, with a cardboard cutout of Zach standing in for the third host. It is the first We're Not Marketers episode made in person, and it is mostly about why the three of them keep showing up to the same conference in fake mustaches. The costumes started as a joke about not being allowed into a marketing event by a podcast called We're Not Marketers. Three years later the bit has produced a real relationship with Dave Gerhardt, a running gag the check-in desk now expects, and enough conviction to go build their own event. Show Notes00:00 Cold open at Drive, and the first We're Not Marketers recorded in person 00:25 Why Zach is on tape as a cardboard cutout 01:02 Why three product marketers keep coming back to the same Vermont conference 01:28 The disguise started as a joke about not being let into a marketing event 02:18 How Drive turned into a family vacation 03:12 Gab's four hour drive from Quebec City with a six month old and a corgi 05:03 Why not San Francisco, and why not Vegas 06:02 Why are we dressing like a bunch of assholes 06:29 The real first reason for the costumes: hiding from Dave 07:03 The clumsy first year, and feeling like a misfit in the room 08:19 Dave Gerhardt walks up: Hey, guy with the hair 11:27 Why the costume works, and the comment from the check-in desk 12:18 Where Zach actually is, and why he still got more selfies than either host 13:33 Why product marketers specifically need to get uncomfortable 13:44 Gab on product marketers being scared to ask for budget 15:22 The survey that got over 10,000 visits, and what belongs on a resume now 16:05 Where the name Mojo came from 17:57 The difference between fear and expecting fear 19:14 Death to Marketing, six weeks before a wedding 20:14 Three guys, no private equity, one event 23:34 Zach's cutout blows over, and Brendan Hufford checks in 24:48 Community with a lowercase c 27:34 What happens when a 200 person event becomes 400 28:16 The boat tour, and what they took for Lake Michigan 29:39 LaShay Lewis, and the line that stuck 30:01 The pain of change is no longer worse than the pain of staying the same 31:16 Go shake hands, go touch grass Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    We Spent Three Years Hiding From Dave Gerhardt at His Own Event

  2. Sep 10

    Why Is Every Product Marketer Suddenly Being Asked to Make Video? w/ Natalie Taylor

    Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team, and she has spent two years watching product marketers get stuck in the same queue. Her fix runs against the standard playbook. Stop treating the launch video as the last asset. Make it first, because it is the most complex format you own, and once it is right the copy, the visuals and the email GIFs all fall out of it. She also walks through what an agentic video skill actually does, step by step, and says the quiet part out loud about her own category: most AI product demos are not showing you real output. Then the whole thing detours into a pizza tier list that somehow lands the sharpest AI argument in the episode. SHOW NOTES 00:00 Cold open and host introductions 00:41 Natalie joins, and admits she has never held the title of product marketer 01:56 The question the show exists for: are product marketers actually marketers? 02:18 Why marketing labels never made sense to her 03:20 "You're a marketer if you're doing marketing" 03:24 The one exception: why demand gen sits in its own bucket 05:19 The Tuesday afternoon Slack message that says "let's do some product videos" 05:54 Everyone is being asked to make video, job description or not 07:36 The old workflow: ask the creative team, join the queue, wait 08:25 Fully agentic video, without opening an editing tool 09:23 Eric asks whether video is back in fashion or just newly possible 10:17 What Twitter's feed of launch videos says about the format 11:14 Capsule starts with the launch video instead of ending with it 12:58 Anthropic as the model for tier-two launches 14:01 Capacity versus tooling when you are one person 15:19 Video skills, walked through with a Zendesk example 16:36 Why most AI video tools are one shot, and why this one hands you a project 18:39 What a PMM should actually go learn about video 19:52 You should not need to be an expert to make something good 20:43 Gab on developing taste 21:03 The agentic promise versus the learning curve nobody mentions 23:31 Zach on feeling like an idiot yelling into a chatbot 24:07 Smoke and mirrors, and how Natalie is launching against the hype 25:05 The pizza tier list begins 27:34 "An AI agent won't be able to do that for you" 30:03 Zach imagines Natalie as a MasterChef judge 31:03 Pizza is a canvas, and so is AI 33:17 The pizza industry secret, and the oven she and her husband built 35:07 Chicago, New York, or New Haven 35:53 Where to find Natalie SOURCES Capsule, the video platform Natalie runs marketing for: https://capsule.video Modern Pizza Products, the oven she co-founded: https://www.modernpizzaproducts.com Emily Kramer's fuel and engine framework: https://newsletter.mkt1.co/p/fuel-engine Natalie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliecstaylor/ Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    Why Is Every Product Marketer Suddenly Being Asked to Make Video? w/ Natalie Taylor

  3. Sep 3

    PMA Offered Us $200. We Said "No Deal", and Built Our Own Event

    This is the Death to Marketing episode. Zach, Eric and Gab take stock of what it has actually cost to build a conference from nothing: the $200 sponsorship offer that set the whole thing in motion, the $90,000 in sponsors they have since closed, the 48 people who have bought tickets, and the friend who texted to say he wasn't coming. What it does to you when the success of your business becomes the measure of you as a person, why selling tickets turned out to be harder than selling sponsors, and the lesson none of them expected to learn about asking for help. Death to Marketing is October 11 in Holland, Michigan. *Recorded August 10, 2026. Show Notes (00:00) Why the branding scared people off — on purpose(00:39) "It's not an event for everybody"(01:46) Neither of them had ever run an event(02:58) The $200 offer that started all of this(03:23) From a $200 reimbursement to $90,000 in sponsors(04:30) The math that made no sense(05:04) The two events that set the bar(06:46) Are conferences a crutch for the PMM community?(10:28) Enough about PMA(11:02) The real number, said out loud(11:05) "48 people we have to pay to have a good time"(12:24) Someone bought a ticket from Scotland(12:55) What turned out to be easier than expected(13:11) The moment it stopped being a bit and became a real event(14:12) "This is the rollercoaster we're going to be taking"(15:22) Hiring a partner who pushes back on you(16:37) What Eric took on personally(20:05) Why planning it made it easier to say no to sponsors(20:36) Running an event like a product launch(22:05) How this compares to every sales kickoff they've sat through(23:05) The one thing no other event is doing(25:21) The hard stuff starts here(25:49) When your business becomes your identity(26:54) The text from a friend who wasn't coming(27:37) "An event run by these three losers"(29:00) "I want this to be the only event we ever throw"(29:59) Turtle pace: the grind of selling tickets(30:55) The discipline of narrowing the audience mid-sale(34:38) The delegation problem(36:09) "One of the heaviest things you'll ever do"(37:59) Keep, stop, do over(38:47) Keep: the partner(41:42) Do over: the waitlist(43:36) Do over: invite-only?(43:58) The coin flip nobody can call(45:23) If they do it again, it might be a stage play(48:31) The ask, without the false urgency Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    PMA Offered Us $200. We Said "No Deal", and Built Our Own Event

  4. May 14

    How a Guy Who Graded Film Got Tricked Into Product Marketing w/ Jason Druss

    Jason Druss spent 15 years being the customer — a film colorist at Warner Bros, NFL Films, and his own Philly boutique — before Adobe pulled him into product marketing for Premier Pro and After Effects. In this episode, Jason (Principal Product Marketing Manager, Adobe) drops his takes: why workflow isn't a buzzword when you've actually lived it, how his team runs a private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users, and why being your own ICP is both a superpower and a trap. If you've ever felt like a fraud talking about users you've never met, this one's for you. More from this episode Why "customer" gives Jason the ick (and what word he uses instead) The PMM job is 50% talking to users — not Slack, not slides, not strategy decks How Adobe's PMM team gets buy-in before a feature exists, not after The Tarantino move: why Jason starts every story at the end Being your own ICP is a cheat code… until it makes you look like a fanboy at annual planning The exact reason Frame.io's Camera to Cloud killed an industry workflow that hadn't changed since 1920 Why every PMM should buy a pillow with their product's logo on it (yes, really) The unsexy truth about "creative freedom" — you have to earn it with data first How Jason found his PMM job: he wasn't looking, his mentor was watching his LinkedIn posts Why "make it pretty" and "make it beautiful" are two completely different briefs Time Stamps 00:00 Cold open — the misfit intros 00:45 Why this episode is different: a PMM pulled IN to PMM, not chasing it 01:30 Jason Druss intro — from colorist to Adobe PMM 02:15 THE QUESTION: Are product marketers marketers? 03:30 "We're storytellers before we're marketers" 04:30 Should the product or the user be the main character? 05:30 The trap of feature-led storytelling vs. workflow thinking 07:00 What "workflow" actually means (and why it's not jargon) 09:00 The Frame.io / Camera to Cloud story 12:30 How Frame.io rewrote a 100-year-old industry workflow 14:00 Jason's spicy take: PMMs must eat, live, breathe the product 16:00 How user needs have shifted dramatically in 5–10 years 18:00 The Premier Pro pillow story (and why every PMM should have one) 19:00 Where most companies fail at user research 20:30 The private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users 21:30 Weekly webinars, betas, and the questions you're NOT asking users 24:00 Scrappy is a state of mind, not a company size 25:00 Jason's career timeline: Blackmagic → NFL Films → Warner Bros → Frame.io → Adobe 28:00 The crisis of faith — leaving "colorist" behind 30:00 Why Jason's passion is impossible to fake 31:30 The dark side of being your own ICP 33:00 Mixing intuition with data — the PMM credibility unlock 35:00 Advice for aspiring PMMs: become a subject matter expert first 38:00 The creativity rant — your differentiator vs. AI 41:30 ROI, business metrics, and earning the seat at the table 44:00 The "beautiful circle" of product marketing (and who's outside it) 46:00 Where to find Jason + Adobe Max teaser 48:00 Outro Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    How a Guy Who Graded Film Got Tricked Into Product Marketing w/ Jason Druss

  5. May 7

    AI is killing your marketing (one way to fix) w/ Gila Shapiro

    Some of B2B are the cool kids shouting "synergy" with spinach dip in hand. Gila Shapiro — copywriter, PMM, and resident chaos agent at Fireflies.ai — joined the crew to roast corporate buzzwords, expose "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" with AI, and give the founder POV trick that ends executive copy fights forever. If you've ever been asked to "elevate enterprise synergies," this one's for you.More from this episode The two words that should disqualify any marketer from giving copy feedback (hint: rhymes with "synergy") Why having a frying pan doesn't make you a chef — and writing copy doesn't make you a copywriter The "shout pineapple" school of copywriting Why B2B brands are scared of being unfollowed — and why that's why nobody clicks The dinner party test that kills 90% of corporate jargon on contact The difference between "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" (and why one of these kills your career in 18 months) Gila's reverse-engineering trick for ending founder vs. marketer copy fights forever Why making your boss happy and making your customer click are two completely different jobs The brutally honest reason most messaging processes are broken — and the only fix that actually works Gila pitches Riverside vs. SquadCast live on the show (and we may or may not be switching now) Show Notes Timespan: 00:00 Cold Open & Host Introductions (Eric, Zach, Gab) 01:00 Introducing Gila Shapiro — Copywriter, PMM, Creative Strategist at Riverside 02:50 The Recurring Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:00 The "Elevate Your Enterprise Synergies" Test 05:30 Writing Copy vs. Being a Copywriter — The Frying Pan Analogy 07:00 Gila's Process: Say the Terrible Thing Out Loud 07:35 The Dinner Party Test 09:00 Why Most People Default to Corporate Jargon 12:30 Be Interested to Be Interesting — The Customer Interview Trick 15:30 Ownership at Riverside & Wearing Multiple Hats 17:30 The Broken Brief-to-Copy Handoff Process 19:30 What to Do When Good Copy Doesn't Convert 21:30 Personal Brands vs. B2B Brands: Why B2B Is Afraid 23:30 AI for Job Security — Copy Think vs. Copy Paste 27:00 The "Copy Think vs. Copy Paste" Framework 30:00 Internal Fights with Executives Over Copy 31:25 The Founder POV Reverse-Engineering Trick 33:30 Burnout, Garden Gnomes, and Chasing the Fun Parts 36:30 Live Pitch: Why Switch from SquadCast to Riverside? 40:30 Cheers and Farewell Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    AI is killing your marketing (one way to fix) w/ Gila Shapiro

  6. Apr 23

    Allergic to b******t marketing w/ Louis Grenier

    Louis Grenier has run a podcast called Everyone Hates Marketers for 8 years. He's not here to be nice about it. In this episode, Lou breaks down why product marketing only exists because B2B tech forgot what customers actually want — and why your positioning project is probably being run by the wrong person. We cover customer research frameworks, the CEO buy-in problem no one talks about, and the Irish convenience store that is a crime against positioning. Hit play before your next messaging doc meeting. You'll thank us. More from this episode Product marketing only exists because B2B tech companies got so far from their customers they had to invent a role to translate what the product actually does. Why the most powerful thing a consultant can offer is not being inside the company. Lou's actual Hotjar failure — why the CMO wasn't enough to make repositioning work. The six things you need to know from customers before you can touch a positioning doc. Why calling something a "marketing initiative" is the fastest way to kill CEO buy-in. "Sniff the same glue" — Lou's surprisingly accurate description of organizational alignment. The 3-meter Irish storefront that is simultaneously a convenience store, Indian takeaway, off-license, and Red Bull dealer. One shop. Three meters. Zero positioning. Why community is just a word companies use when they want a place to sell at people without being obvious about it. Lou's hot take on co-founders: "Good luck to whoever wants to take that role with me." The one customer research mistake that guarantees useless data: talking to the wrong people at the wrong time. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    Allergic to b******t marketing w/ Louis Grenier

  7. Jan 29

    “I’m Just A Normal PMM Trying To Survive” (with David Lim)

    Are product marketers actually marketers, or are they just glorified slide deck designers waiting for sales to bark orders? David Lim—a PMM who's survived Google, HP, and multiple startups—joins the skeleton crew to drop some uncomfortable truths. We talk about earning respect when founders don't have a clue what you do, why knowing your customer's quarterly priorities is a superpower, and what happens when you fight a C-suite exec on product strategy (spoiler: sometimes you get fired). If you've ever been asked to "make that deck pretty," this one's for you.More From This Episode The brutal truth: What happens when you don't earn internal respect as a PMM Why sales teams don't talk to product teams (and how PMMs become the bridge) The one customer question David asks that unlocks everything: "What are your quarterly priorities?" David got fired for fighting a founder on product strategy—here's what he learned Why most founders have zero idea what PMMs actually do (and think you're just a lead gen machine) The "gut feeling" trap: When executives ignore your research and launch anyway How to stop rolling your eyes when leadership makes dumb decisions (David admits he's not good at this) Why working under the product org might actually be better for PMMs The ultimate PMM flex: Knowing your customer better than anyone in the company Are PMMs actually marketers, or just the people who make sales decks look pretty? Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction and Season 5 Kickoff 00:59 Introducing Guest: David Lim (PMM at BVO) 02:36 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 How PMMs Earn Respect (Or Get Stuck in the Black Hole) 07:00 What Sets PMMs Apart: Cross-Functional Collaboration 09:45 The Research That Changed Everything (Working Under Product Org) 13:00 Advocating for PMM: Educating Teams on What You Actually Do 16:00 The Metrics Problem: What Should PMMs Own? 20:00 Working with Customer Success Teams (QBRs and Product Feedback) 23:00 When You Know the Customer Better Than Anyone Else 26:00 Understanding Quarterly Priorities (The Detail Most PMMs Miss) 29:00 Customer Advisory Boards and Sales Advisory Boards 33:00 The Struggle: When Executives Ignore Your Research 35:00 David's Story: Getting Fired for Fighting Product Strategy 38:00 Gab's Story: When a Writer Called the Product "Shit" 40:00 Rolling with the Punches (And Why It's Hard) 42:00 In-House vs. Agency PMM: The Respect Difference 45:00 Post-Launch Research: The Key to Proving You Were Right 47:00 The Founder Talk: Setting Clear Expectations 49:00 Understanding the Customer's Buying Process 50:00 Wrap-Up and Where to Find David Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    “I’m Just A Normal PMM Trying To Survive” (with David Lim)

  8. Jan 15

    The Anti-ICP Strategy: How To Use Your Website to Fire Bad Prospects w/ BX Studio

    Product marketers think they own the messaging. SEO thinks they own the traffic. But who actually owns your website—and why are they both probably wrong? In this spicy debate with BX Studio, we dig into the turf war destroying B2B websites, why your CEO is the real problem, and the radical idea that maybe your website should actually reject leads (yes, really). Buckle up for hot takes on keyword worship, the death of MQLs, and why your Rolex store strategy is all wrong.Featuring from BX Studio...Jacob Sussman, CEO Nikiya Griffith, Director of Organic Growth Grace Arrese, Partnerships AssociateMore from this episode Why adding SEO keywords is like putting ketchup on a wagyu steak The real reason your website converts trash leads (hint: it's not the copy) What Rolex stores know about lead qualification that B2B marketers don't The "Irish Exit" messaging framework that'll change how you write forever Why tracking MQLs is like measuring your height to lose weight The CEO wrecking ball effect (and why it destroys every website eventually) How QuickBooks became a cautionary tale for AI-obsessed marketers The Writer's Wiki secret that could save product marketing 20 hours a week Why your anti-ICP strategy matters more than your ICP The shocking truth about who actually owns your website (spoiler: it's not who you think) Time Stamps 00:00 Opening & Attendee Check-in 01:00 Real Humans vs AI Note-takers Discussion 02:00 Setting the Stage: PMMs vs Non-PMMs 03:00 The Main Question: Who Should Own the Website? 03:45 Eric's Hot Take: Product Marketing Should Own It 04:45 Nikia's Counter: Joint Ownership is Key 05:45 Website Ownership and Blame Discussion 07:00 Real-World Website Conversion Problems 08:30 The Writer's Wiki Solution 11:00 Dream Relationships Between PMM and SEO 13:00 Keyword Lists vs Message-First Approach 16:00 Website Design and FAQ Strategy 18:00 The CRO/CEO Acronym Confusion 20:00 QuickBooks AI Positioning Disaster 22:00 Who Has Final Say on Messaging? 26:30 The CEO Wrecking Ball Problem 29:00 The Irish Exit Messaging Analogy 31:00 Metrics That Matter: SQLs vs MQLs 33:00 The Rolex Store Anti-ICP Strategy 35:00 Enterprise Positioning and Deterrence 38:00 Nikia's Counter: Why More Metrics Matter 41:00 The Internal Echo Chamber Problem 45:00 GEO vs SEO: The New Frontier 48:00 Closing Thoughts and Farewell Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    The Anti-ICP Strategy: How To Use Your Website to Fire Bad Prospects w/ BX Studio
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About

B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either. What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers. The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door. Stop being overlooked and start listening. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Information

  • Creator
    Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    78
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 - We're Not Marketers
  • Show Website
    We're Not Marketers

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