In this deeply personal episode, Dr. Debi Silber is joined by her daughter Camryn for a candid, behind-the-scenes conversation about what it really looks like to get stuck in Stage Three — not because of a betrayal by someone else, but through our own patterns, thoughts, and avoidance. Camryn's story is one of extraordinary intelligence, world travel, and deep self-awareness ultimately leading to the most important journey of all: inward. If you've ever wondered what Stage Three looks and feels like from the inside — or suspected that your coping strategies might actually be keeping you stuck — this episode is for you. Meet Camryn Holds a Master's degree with a background in psychology Multilingual and a seasoned world traveler Deep empath with a gift for feeling collective emotion Now living in Asia — a move born from genuine inner clarity, not escape Camryn has always been the kind of person who sees the world differently — comfortable in spaces of authenticity (nature, animals, children, the elderly) and deeply uncomfortable with the masks and performance of social life. As a teenager, she deleted social media entirely because of how it made her feel. That instinct, long before it was a cultural conversation, tells you everything about who she is. Key Themes & Takeaways What Stage Three Really Looks Like Stage Three — that place of surviving but not thriving — doesn't always look like suffering from the outside. Sometimes it looks like adventure. Camryn's version of Stage Three involved living in different countries, absorbing languages and cultures, sleeping in hostels, spending every dollar on experiences. From the outside: impressive. From the inside: a beautifully camouflaged method of avoiding herself. Dr. Debi draws a powerful parallel: just as some people numb with TV, alcohol, or overwork (all things that can look productive), Camryn's distraction was world travel — something that genuinely fed her AND kept her from staying still long enough to look inward. The Belief That Starts It All Dr. Debi shares one of her most-used teaching examples: a little boy with exciting news, shushed by his mother on the phone. In that moment, he might decide: "I don't matter." From there, everything confirms it — the car that cuts him off, the door that closes in his face. That core belief shapes who he dates, what he accepts, what he tolerates. The takeaway: we all carry a story. The work is finding out what story we've been telling ourselves — and whether it's true. Escaping Yourself (And Why It Doesn't Work) No matter where you go, you take your thoughts with you. Camryn describes the experience of arriving somewhere new — forced to think differently because the environment demanded it — and then slowly, inevitably, watching the same unhealed patterns creep back in. The breakthrough moment came before a planned move to New Zealand. A quiet, honest question: What do you think New Zealand is going to do for you? The answer was nothing. And that nothing was everything. The New Zealand Moment: Recognizing the Pattern This is the kind of moment that changes things. Not dramatic. Not loud. Just a pause, a look between mother and daughter, and a recognition that the pattern had been named. That's the beginning of Stage Four — when the fog lifts just enough to see what's been happening. Fear vs. Intuition: How to Tell the Difference One of the most practical and powerful parts of this conversation: how do you know if a decision is coming from your gut or from your fear? Camryn shares her process — sitting with a decision, asking whether the pull is expansive or constricting, whether it comes from the head (noisy, arguing, rationalizing) or something quieter and steadier underneath. The mind can convince you of anything. Intuition doesn't need to argue. She also shares the question she comes back to when facing a big decision: What would my oldest self have wanted? That question cuts through the noise of other people's opinions, social pressure, and fear. Honoring Others' Opinions — Without Being Ruled by Them When Camryn decided to move across the world from a close, loving family, there were feelings. Dr. Debi shares honestly that it wasn't "don't go" — it was "we'll miss you." And Camryn learned to hold that with love, express gratitude for the input, take her time, and then follow her own inner compass anyway. This is self-love in action. Not selfishness. Knowing yourself well enough to trust what you know. Being an Empath: Gift and Challenge Camryn is a deep empath — someone who doesn't just sympathize but actually feels the emotional energy of people around her, including collective pain. This explains so much: her comfort with children and animals (no judgment, no masks), her discomfort with performative social environments, and her need to move, process, and release what she absorbs. Dr. Debi reflects on her own journey to understanding empathy — not realizing she was an empath until 50, spending decades thinking she was "too sensitive." Camryn's empathy is even more acute, and learning to recognize what's hers versus what she's absorbing from others has been part of her healing. The flip side: empaths feel highs as intensely as lows. A bird. A rainbow. A baby laughing. Brought to tears of pure joy. That's not weakness — that's a gift, when it's understood and channeled. Ripping Off the Band-Aid Camryn's approach to fear has always been extreme: if something scares her, she goes straight at it. No gradual exposure — full immersion. It's how she processes. It's not the only way, but it's hers, and it works precisely because she knows herself well enough to trust it. She also has a clear filter: she won't do something just because it challenges a fear. The fear has to be worth facing. The experience has to align with who she is. That discernment is Stage Five wisdom. Quotable Moments "We put ourselves in a stage three trap — sometimes through betrayal, sometimes through our own doing." "You take the same thoughts, the same everything with you — except you'd be forced to think differently because you were in a new culture." "What do you think New Zealand is going to do for you?" "My oldest self would have wanted this." "The mind can put you in a prison — and convince you the only escape is to escape." "It's all a journey to self-love. Moving through betrayal completely, the five stages, overcoming whatever it is — it's all a journey to self-love." The Five Stages Connection This episode is a real-life illustration of the Five Stages from Betrayal to Breakthrough™ — not as something that happens only after someone hurts you, but as a map for anyone who has gotten stuck in survival mode: Stage 1 — The Setup: The beliefs and patterns laid down early that shape how we move through the world Stage 2 — The Breakdown: The moment something cracks open — could be a betrayal, could be a quiet realization Stage 3 — Survival: Functional on the outside, stuck on the inside — sometimes disguised as productivity, adventure, or achievement Stage 4 — The Shift: A moment of honest recognition — like the New Zealand conversation Stage 5 — Healing & Thriving: Living from a place of genuine self-knowledge, self-trust, and self-love Resources & Next Steps Learn more about the Five Stages from Betrayal to Breakthrough™ framework: https://thepbtinstitute.com Share this episode with someone who seems to be "thriving" on the outside but you sense is stuck on the inside
