Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

David Burns, MD
  • 4.6 (839)
  • Mental Health
  • Updated Weekly

This podcast features David D. Burns MD, author of "Feeling Good, The New Mood Therapy," describing powerful new techniques to overcome depression and anxiety and develop greater joy and self-esteem. For therapists and the general public alike!

  1. 27m ago

    519: What Therapists Get Wrong—and How to Fix It

    Episode 519: What Therapists Get Wrong—and How to Fix It Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Guest: Jeremy Karmel What happens when therapy becomes something you simply keep doing rather than something that actually helps you get better? In this lively and provocative episode of The Feeling Good Podcast, Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, joins Dr. David Burns and Jeremy Karmel for a candid conversation about some of the biggest problems they see in modern mental health care—and what therapists can do differently. Jeremy brings a unique perspective to the discussion: he experienced severe depression in college and spent months in different therapies and therapy groups without getting better. Then, working with one of David Burns' students, he discovered powerful cognitive therapy techniques that produced dramatic results in just two weeks. The experience left him both grateful and frustrated—and motivated to understand why effective treatment can sometimes be so difficult to find. David, Kevin, and Jeremy explore several common pitfalls in therapy, including the failure to measure results, getting lost in the past, talking about problems in vague and general terms, and assuming that every therapist is qualified to treat every kind of problem. Accountability: Is Therapy Actually Working? The conversation begins with one of David's central concerns: accountability. If someone has been coming to therapy for months—or even years—how do they know whether treatment is actually helping? Kevin shares his own experience of spending several years in therapy without clearly defined goals or any systematic testing of progress. Although he valued the relationship with his therapist, he now sees the lack of specific goals and measurement as a major limitation. By contrast, his current approach involves establishing concrete treatment goals and measuring progress before and after sessions. Jeremy points out that many people in therapy cannot even answer a basic question: What are you working on? Without clear goals, it becomes difficult for patients to hold therapists—or themselves—accountable for results. Do We Really Need to Find the Cause in the Past? The group then tackles another controversial question: Does effective therapy require uncovering the origins of a problem in childhood or the distant past? David tells the story of a woman with a severe elevator phobia who had been told in psychoanalysis that the roots of her fear were in childhood—and that overcoming it might take several more years. During a workshop, David instead helped her confront the feared elevator directly. Within minutes, her fear disappeared, and she subsequently rode skyscraper elevators without difficulty. The larger point isn't that the past is irrelevant. Rather, David argues that therapy can become unnecessarily focused on discovering hypothetical causes when the more practical question is: What is bothering you right now, and what can we do about it? The conversation extends this idea to trauma and PTSD. David describes an approach that focuses primarily on the patient's current distress rather than repeatedly dwelling on the traumatic history. Jeremy shares an example of someone whose debilitating trauma-related flashbacks improved after confronting the traumatic memory directly. From General Problems to Specific Moments: The Power of Fractals Another major theme is the distinction between general problems and specific problems. People commonly come into therapy saying things like: "I don't know who I am." "I have low self-esteem." "I'm bad at relationships." "I'm always depressed." "I have trouble with people." But what does that actually mean? David and Kevin argue that the therapist's job is to find a specific moment when the supposedly general problem was actually happening. What was going on? Where were you? Who was there? What were you feeling? And, most importantly, what were you telling yourself? David describes these specific moments as "fractals": individual situations that contain the repeating pattern of a much larger problem. By solving the specific problem, you may simultaneously begin solving the general problem. Jeremy illustrates this with his own tendency to argue. Looking at specific interactions through David's Relationship Journal helped him recognize a recurring pattern: instead of listening and looking for truth in what another person was saying, he would shift into arguing. Is Your Therapist Actually an Expert in Your Problem? The final major theme may be the most provocative: Therapists aren't necessarily experts in every problem their patients bring to therapy. David and Jeremy use dating as an example. A therapist may have extensive training in psychotherapy without having any particular expertise in dating, flirting, relationships, or the practical skills involved in meeting potential partners. Kevin offers an important distinction: therapists don't necessarily need to give advice about every subject. Instead, they can help clients identify the thoughts, emotions, behaviors, and communication patterns that are getting in their way. This leads to a broader principle: therapy is not one-size-fits-all. Different problems require different skills, and therapists should be honest about what they know—and what they don't. Kevin describes how he deliberately developed greater expertise in treating anxiety rather than trying to present himself as an expert in everything. Key Takeaways Therapy should have measurable goals. If you don't know what you're trying to accomplish, it becomes difficult to determine whether therapy is working. Relief and effectiveness aren't necessarily the same thing. A supportive therapeutic relationship can feel valuable while still failing to produce meaningful progress on the problems that brought someone to therapy. Don't automatically assume the past is the key to the cure. The speakers argue that many problems can be addressed more effectively by focusing on what is happening in the present. Get specific. Instead of discussing "low self-esteem," "identity," or "relationship problems" in the abstract, identify a specific recent moment when the problem occurred. Specific moments can reveal larger patterns. The "fractal" concept suggests that a single upsetting interaction may contain the same cognitive and emotional patterns that repeatedly create suffering elsewhere. Therapists aren't experts at everything. A psychotherapy credential doesn't automatically make someone an expert in every problem a client might bring. Specialization matters. Therapists can become much more effective by developing deep expertise in particular problems and treatment methods. Therapists should be willing to say, "I'm not the right person for this." Recognizing the limits of one's expertise can be a sign of professionalism and humility rather than weakness. The ultimate question is simple: Is the patient getting better? For David, Kevin, and Jeremy, accountability means keeping the focus on results—and continually learning better ways to help people achieve them. About This Episode This episode features Dr. David Burns, Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and Jeremy Karmel, a former therapy client whose own experience with ineffective treatment led him to become deeply involved in developing the Feeling Great app. The conversation is candid, humorous, and intentionally provocative—but its central message is constructive: when therapists identify weaknesses in their approach, measure their results, develop better skills, and remain humble about what they don't know, they can become dramatically more effective. As David puts it near the end of the episode, there are problems in therapy—but there are also solutions, and learning new skills can open the door to much greater effectiveness. About Jeremy Karmel Jeremy Karmel works with David Burns on the Feeling Great app and became passionate about TEAM-CBT after experiencing a dramatic recovery from severe depression during college. After trying numerous forms of therapy without success, he worked with Matt May and experienced a complete clearing of his depression in approximately two weeks. If You Enjoyed This Episode If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe to The Feeling Good Podcast, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who struggles with anxiety or avoidance. Your support helps more people discover practical, evidence-based tools for overcoming fear and building happier lives. Listener Survey We'd love to hear from you! Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode. Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling. Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast! Contact Information Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app. Feeling Great feels wonderful! You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT! Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

  2. Sep 7

    Why So Much Therapy Doesn't Work (And What Actually Does)

    Episode 518: Why So Much Therapy Doesn't Work (And What Actually Does) Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Guest: Jeremy Karmel What happens when therapy doesn't work? In this provocative episode of The Feeling Good Podcast, David Burns and Jeremy Karmel join Kevin Cornelius to examine some uncomfortable questions about the mental health field: Why do some people remain in therapy for years without getting better? Why do so few therapists measure their patients' progress? What happens when therapists become overly attached to one particular school of therapy? And how can we make psychotherapy more effective, accountable, and evidence-based? Jeremy brings a particularly personal perspective to the conversation. After experiencing severe depression in college and trying numerous forms of therapy without success, he worked with Matt May using TEAM-CBT and experienced a dramatic recovery in roughly two weeks. That experience ultimately led him to become deeply involved in TEAM-CBT and in the development of the Feeling Great app. David and Jeremy describe a list of more than 30 concerns about the way mental health care is commonly practiced today. They emphasize that the goal isn't simply to criticize therapists, but to encourage a radical improvement in the effectiveness of psychotherapy. In This Episode 1. Can financial incentives create a conflict of interest? David and Jeremy explore a difficult question: If therapists are paid by the session, is there an inherent incentive to keep therapy going longer than necessary? They contrast long-term therapy without measurable improvement with a model in which the therapist's goal is to help the client recover as quickly and completely as possible. David argues that therapists should be able to define what successful treatment looks like and determine whether their interventions are actually producing meaningful change. Kevin offers another perspective from his experience at Feeling Good Institute, where brief TEAM-CBT therapy can lead to rapid improvement while also generating referrals because clients recognize that the treatment is effective. 2. Are schools of therapy becoming like "cults"? David and Jeremy question the tendency within psychotherapy to become attached to particular theorists, schools, and treatment models. Instead of assuming that one approach explains every psychological problem, they argue for flexibility. Depression, anxiety, relationship problems, and other difficulties may have very different causes and may require very different interventions. David describes TEAM-CBT as a framework for effective psychotherapy rather than allegiance to one particular technique. He has developed more than 140 techniques and emphasizes selecting methods according to the individual's specific problem. Jeremy points out that therapists and patients can be tempted to treat the ideas of famous figures such as Freud or Carl Rogers as unquestionable truths rather than hypotheses that should be tested against evidence. 3. The refusal to measure Perhaps the strongest theme of the episode is the importance of measurement. David argues that therapists need to know whether their patients are actually improving—not simply assume that they are. His approach involves measuring symptoms at the beginning and end of sessions and tracking changes over time. If a person begins a session feeling 90% depressed and ends at 80%, that's useful information. If the numbers don't improve from week to week, the therapist has evidence that something needs to change. On the other hand, dramatic changes can provide tangible evidence that treatment is working. Jeremy shares the story of a friend who had apparently been depressed for 18 months or more while receiving therapy, yet neither the therapist nor the patient had been systematically measuring whether the depression was improving. 4. Therapists aren't always accurate judges of how their patients feel One of the most surprising parts of the discussion is David's argument that therapists' clinical intuition can be remarkably inaccurate. He describes research in which highly trained clinicians interviewed patients extensively and then estimated how depressed, anxious, angry, or suicidal the patients were. Their estimates were extremely inaccurate compared with the patients' own ratings. The lesson is humbling: We cannot reliably assume that we know how another person feels simply because we've spent a lot of time talking with them. Measurement provides information that intuition cannot. 5. Measurement can transform the therapist, too David explains that measurement isn't simply a way of judging the patient—or judging the therapist. It can become one of the most powerful tools for improving clinical skill. If a therapist believes a session went wonderfully but the patient's ratings show otherwise, the therapist has an opportunity to learn. Likewise, if a particular intervention consistently produces dramatic improvements, measurement can reveal what works and help the therapist do more of it. Kevin shares his own experience of how using testing transformed his work with clients and helped him learn how to become a more effective therapist. 6. What can therapists and patients do differently? The episode ultimately isn't about giving up on therapy. It's about demanding better therapy. David argues that the problems discussed—including conflicts of interest, allegiance to particular schools of therapy, and the failure to measure outcomes—are solvable. Therapists can begin using data to evaluate their effectiveness and become more willing to change their methods when patients aren't improving. Kevin also encourages people seeking therapy to ask prospective therapists whether they use measurement and whether they track progress from session to session. Key Takeaways Therapy should be evaluated by its results. Good intentions, empathy, and a strong therapeutic relationship are important, but they aren't substitutes for meaningful improvement. Therapists need to measure. Without measurement, it can be difficult to know whether a client is improving, staying the same, or getting worse. Don't assume one therapy fits every problem. Different emotional and relationship problems may require different techniques. Question therapeutic dogma. Famous therapists and established schools of therapy can offer valuable ideas, but their claims should be evaluated rather than accepted simply because they come from an authority. Clinical intuition has limits. Even experienced therapists may be surprisingly inaccurate when judging how patients are actually feeling. Measurement is a learning tool. Tracking outcomes doesn't just hold therapists accountable—it helps them discover what works and improve their skills. Patients can become informed consumers of therapy. Asking a prospective therapist how they measure progress can provide valuable information about their approach. Therapy can be brief and effective. The goal shouldn't necessarily be years of treatment; the goal should be meaningful improvement and relapse prevention. The field can change. David, Jeremy, and Kevin emphasize that the problems they identify aren't inevitable. Therapists can adopt more flexible, measurable, evidence-based approaches. A Question for Listeners How do you know if your therapy is working? If you're a therapist, do you routinely measure your clients' symptoms and satisfaction? If you're a therapy client, has anyone ever shown you objective evidence that you're getting better? And perhaps most importantly: Would you have the courage to discover that your current approach isn't working—and then change it? About Jeremy Karmel Jeremy Karmel works with David Burns on the Feeling Great app and became passionate about TEAM-CBT after experiencing a dramatic recovery from severe depression during college. After trying numerous forms of therapy without success, he worked with Matt May and experienced a complete clearing of his depression in approximately two weeks. Coming Up This conversation is the beginning of a larger discussion about the problems—and possibilities—of modern psychotherapy. As Kevin notes at the end of the episode, there are solutions to many of the problems discussed, and future episodes will explore more of them. If You Enjoyed This Episode If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe to The Feeling Good Podcast, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who struggles with anxiety or avoidance. Your support helps more people discover practical, evidence-based tools for overcoming fear and building happier lives. Listener Survey We'd love to hear from you! Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode. Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling. Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast! Contact Information Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app. Feeling Great feels wonderful! You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT! Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

  3. Aug 31

    How a Bloody Trauma Case Cured My Lifelong Blood Phobia

    Episode 517: How a Bloody Trauma Case Cured My Lifelong Blood Phobia Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns Episode Summary Can your greatest fear become one of your greatest strengths? In this deeply personal episode, Dr. David Burns shares the remarkable true story of how a severe lifelong blood phobia nearly ended his medical career—and how one unforgettable day in the emergency room transformed that fear forever. David recounts his unconventional path to becoming a psychiatrist, including almost dropping out of medical school, taking years away from medicine, living without money while trying to create a life centered around helping others, and eventually finding his way back to psychiatry through a residency at Highland Hospital in Oakland. On his very first day in the emergency department, David was confronted with what seemed like his worst nightmare: a critically injured bombing victim covered in blood. Unable to avoid the situation, he was asked to help clean gunpowder from the patient's wounds. What began as overwhelming terror became an unexpected turning point that permanently erased his blood phobia—and ultimately shaped his career treating anxiety disorders. Along the way, David and Kevin explore why exposure is one of the most powerful treatments for anxiety, why motivation is essential for lasting change, and why courage doesn't require the absence of fear. This inspiring conversation is a reminder that the experiences we most want to avoid can sometimes become the doorway to profound growth. In This Episode Why David never intended to become a physician—and almost quit medical school. The childhood experiences that contributed to his lifelong blood phobia. How avoiding feared situations keeps anxiety alive. The extraordinary trauma case that unexpectedly became David's own exposure therapy. The surprising moment his fear disappeared completely. David's concept of the "200% cure"—when something you once feared becomes something you genuinely enjoy. Why therapists sometimes avoid using exposure therapy, even though it is one of the most effective anxiety treatments. Why motivation often determines whether people are able to face their fears. The role of acceptance and willingness during exposure. A moving reunion with Highland Hospital decades later through the surgeon who recently performed David's successful colon surgery. Key Takeaways Exposure works because avoidance keeps fear alive. The natural impulse is to escape what frightens us. Unfortunately, every act of avoidance teaches the brain that the feared situation is dangerous. When we stay in the feared situation long enough, anxiety eventually peaks and then naturally declines. The feared catastrophe rarely occurs, and our confidence grows. Courage means acting while you're afraid. Kevin highlights an important distinction: You don't have to eliminate fear before taking action. Real courage is moving forward even while your anxiety feels overwhelming. David's anxiety remained at a 100 out of 100 for nearly fifteen minutes before it suddenly dissolved. Anxiety cannot remain at its peak forever. One of the biggest misconceptions about anxiety is the belief that once it starts, it will continue indefinitely. In reality, anxiety naturally rises and falls. If we stop escaping and allow ourselves to experience it, it eventually loses its power. Motivation makes exposure possible. For years David simply avoided blood. Everything changed because he had something more important than avoiding fear: he wanted to become a psychiatrist. Having a compelling reason to face anxiety often makes difficult exposure exercises possible. Sometimes fear transforms into enthusiasm. David describes what he calls the "200% cure." A 100% cure means you're no longer afraid. A 200% cure means you actually enjoy doing the very thing you once feared. Many people who overcome fears discover new passions that once seemed impossible. Therapists can become afraid of their patients' anxiety. Kevin and David discuss an important obstacle in treatment: therapists themselves sometimes avoid exposure because they're afraid it will overwhelm the client. Ironically, protecting people from anxiety often prolongs suffering. Learning that anxiety is uncomfortable—but not dangerous—is one of the most healing discoveries patients can make. Exposure requires willingness, not comfort. The goal is never to feel relaxed before confronting a fear. The goal is to become willing to experience anxiety while pursuing what matters. Memorable Quotes "When you confront the thing you're afraid of, you discover that the monster has no teeth." "You don't have to be a hero. You just have to make the decision to do it." "The 100% cure is you're no longer afraid. The 200% cure is that you love doing the thing you were once afraid of." "The real harm is believing that anxiety itself is dangerous." Resources Mentioned Dr. David Burns' accompanying Psychology Today article, "How a Bloody Trauma Case Cured My Lifelong Blood Phobia." TEAM-CBT and exposure techniques for treating anxiety disorders. If You Enjoyed This Episode If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe to The Feeling Good Podcast, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who struggles with anxiety or avoidance. Your support helps more people discover practical, evidence-based tools for overcoming fear and building happier lives. Listener Survey We'd love to hear from you! Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode. Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling. Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast! Contact Information Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app. Feeling Great feels wonderful! You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT! Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

  4. Aug 24

    The Man Who Was Fired Five Times

    The Man Who Was Fired Five Times How Letting Go of Blame Can Transform Your Life Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns What if the biggest obstacle to your happiness isn't your depression, your anxiety, or even the difficult people around you? What if it's the belief that everyone else needs to change first? In this powerful episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, Dr. David Burns and host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, discuss one of David's favorite therapy stories from his recent Psychology Today article, "The Man Who Was Fired Five Times." What begins as the story of a brilliant computer programmer who can't keep a job becomes an unforgettable lesson in overcoming resistance, building meaningful relationships, and discovering the extraordinary power of humility. This episode is packed with practical TEAM-CBT techniques, fascinating therapy demonstrations, and one of the most inspiring recovery stories you'll ever hear. In This Episode A Brilliant Man Who Couldn't Keep a Job David introduces us to "Bhagwant" (a pseudonym), an exceptionally gifted computer programmer who sought treatment after being fired five times in just two years. Although he initially came to therapy complaining of low self-esteem, David quickly noticed something much deeper. Bhagwant believed: His coworkers were conspiring against him. His bosses failed to appreciate his intelligence. Other people were the source of nearly all his suffering. Despite his obvious brilliance, his habit of blaming others had become the greatest obstacle to both his career and his happiness. Why David Didn't Try to Help Him...At First Instead of immediately offering therapy techniques, David did something surprising. He told Bhagwant that perhaps they shouldn't work together. Why? Because therapy would require Bhagwant—not his coworkers—to do all of the changing. Rather than arguing with Bhagwant or trying to convince him he was wrong, David used one of the most powerful TEAM-CBT methods: Dangling the Carrot By joining Bhagwant's resistance instead of fighting it, David completely changed the emotional dynamic. Instead of saying: "You're the problem." He essentially said: "You're right—it seems terribly unfair that you'd have to do all the work when everyone else is causing the problem." That paradoxical response immediately dissolved Bhagwant's resistance. Moments later, he admitted something he had hidden from David: He hadn't merely been placed on probation. He had already been fired—for the fifth time. Why Specificity Matters One of the central themes of the episode is David's insistence on working with specific moments instead of vague labels. Rather than treating "low self-esteem" as the problem, David asks: What happened? Where were you? What time was it? What exactly were you thinking? This "fractal" approach allows therapy to target the real thoughts creating emotional suffering instead of treating abstract diagnostic labels. As David explains, problems can only be solved when they're connected to a real moment in time. Recovery Begins with Practice Once Bhagwant committed fully to treatment, he became an extraordinarily dedicated student of TEAM-CBT. He learned to: Identify cognitive distortions Challenge negative thoughts using Externalization of Voices Master the Five Secrets of Effective Communication Replace defensiveness with curiosity and empathy At one point, David actually had to limit Bhagwant's therapy homework because he was spending six to eight hours a day practicing. The Job Interview That Changed Everything Eventually Bhagwant received a job offer from a company in Florida. David gave him one final piece of surprising advice: Ask your new employer to agree to criticize you every single week. Specifically, David suggested requesting regular meetings where supervisors would openly point out mistakes so Bhagwant could practice using the Five Secrets and the Disarming Technique. The company agreed. The results were astonishing. Within weeks: He had developed excellent relationships with coworkers. He won Employee of the Month. He received multiple promotions. His salary doubled. Years later, David received a Christmas card that brought tears to his eyes. Bhagwant had become CEO of the very company that hired him. The Disarming Technique Much of the second half of the episode explores one of the most challenging—and most transformative—TEAM-CBT skills. What Is Disarming? Disarming means sincerely finding the truth in criticism, even when the criticism seems exaggerated or unfair. David explains what he calls the Law of Opposites: Defending yourself often convinces others the criticism is true. Agreeing sincerely with whatever truth exists often causes the criticism to lose its power. This simple paradox can dramatically transform difficult conversations. Live Role-Playing Kevin and David demonstrate the Disarming Technique through several live role plays. David criticizes Kevin as being: Fake Inexperienced Pretending to know more than he really does Kevin practices agreeing with the truth in the criticism instead of defending himself. David then coaches Kevin to go even deeper—not by problem-solving or trying to improve himself immediately, but by becoming genuinely curious about the other person's experience. Later, the roles reverse, and Kevin criticizes David for being: Cranky Impatient Insensitive David demonstrates how quickly criticism melts away when someone responds with humility, openness, and genuine curiosity. These demonstrations beautifully illustrate why the Disarming Technique is often one of the hardest TEAM-CBT skills to master—and one of the most powerful. Why Resistance Matters Throughout the episode, David explains that resistance is not an obstacle to therapy. It's the doorway into effective therapy. Rather than pushing people toward change, TEAM-CBT first helps people understand why changing feels difficult. Once resistance melts away, motivation naturally appears. Enlightenment and the "Death of the Self" The conversation concludes with a reflection on one of David's favorite philosophical themes. Drawing from Buddhist psychology, David discusses how learning to accept criticism requires what he calls "the death of the self"—letting go of pride, defensiveness, and the constant need to protect one's ego. Rather than seeing criticism as an attack, we can learn to experience it as an opportunity for connection, growth, and deeper understanding. Resource Mentioned Dr. David Burns' Psychology Today article: "The Man Who Was Fired Five Times" Memorable Takeaways The biggest obstacle to change is often our resistance—not our symptoms. Therapy becomes far more effective when it focuses on one specific moment instead of broad labels. Defending yourself usually strengthens criticism; finding the truth in it often dissolves conflict. Humility builds stronger relationships than winning arguments. Learning to respond differently to criticism can transform not only your mood, but your career, your relationships, and your entire life. Whether you're a therapist, a parent, a leader, or simply someone who wants healthier relationships, this episode offers practical tools and inspiring hope that lasting change is possible—even after years of frustration and failure. Listener Survey We'd love to hear from you! Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode. Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling. Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast! Contact Information Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app. Feeling Great feels wonderful! You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT! Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

  5. Aug 17

    Ask David-When Negative Thoughts Won't Stop

    Episode 515: Ask David Parenting Meltdowns, Real-Time TEAM-CBT, and When Negative Thoughts Won't Stop What do you do when your child has a public meltdown—and you feel your own frustration rising just as quickly? And what if your mind feels so overwhelmed with anxious or depressive thoughts that completing a Daily Mood Log seems impossible? In this Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and Psychiatrist/TEAM-CBT therapist Dr. Matt May to answer two thoughtful listener questions that many parents and therapy enthusiasts will recognize. Together, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT techniques live, showing not only what to do, but how to think differently in the moment. Along the way, they explore why changing your relationship with your own thoughts is often more important than trying to control other people's behavior. In This Episode Question 1: How Do I Use TEAM-CBT in Real Time When My Child Has a Meltdown? A listener describes taking his two young sons to the driving range when one child suddenly wants to leave while the other wants to stay. As frustration mounts, so do the automatic thoughts: "He's being a brat." "He's too immature for this." "He's ungrateful and whines all the time." Although the listener can challenge these thoughts later using a Daily Mood Log, he wonders: How can I use TEAM-CBT in the middle of an emotionally charged parenting moment? David, Kevin, and Matt explore this question through several live demonstrations. Topics Include: Why self-compassion comes before effective parenting The danger of "should" statements directed at yourself How beating yourself up actually makes it harder to respond compassionately Why practice outside emotional moments prepares you for success inside emotional moments Accepting your own imperfections as a parent Matt demonstrates how to respond to his own inner critic using Externalization of Voices, replacing self-criticism with realistic self-acceptance instead of perfectionism. Challenging "Shoulds" About Other People The conversation then shifts to another common trap: Trying to make other people different than they are. Together they examine several automatic thoughts parents commonly experience: "He's being a brat." "He's too immature." "He's ungrateful." David helps Matt and Kevin identify the cognitive distortions hiding inside these thoughts, including: Labeling Hidden should statements Unrealistic expectations Blaming Rather than arguing intellectually, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT methods such as: Acceptance Paradox Self-Defense Counterattack Externalization of Voices The discussion highlights an important insight: Much of our emotional suffering comes not from other people's behavior—but from insisting they should be different than they are. Kevin shares a personal story about using the Feeling Great app's Paradoxical Magnification exercise to dissolve his own "should" statements about parenting through humor and acceptance. Question 2: What If My Mind Never Stops Producing Negative Thoughts? The second listener has struggled with depression and anxiety since adolescence. Although he believes in TEAM-CBT, he finds the Daily Mood Log overwhelming because his mind produces what feels like hundreds of negative thoughts every minute. His questions include: How long should I spend on a Daily Mood Log? Do I need to answer every negative thought? Why can't I create positive thoughts that actually feel believable? David's Advice Dr. Burns explains that: 10–20 minutes of Daily Mood Log work is usually enough. You do not need to answer every negative thought. Most automatic thoughts are simply variations of a handful of core beliefs. Consistent practice matters much more than perfection. Using his own recovery after recent surgery as an example, David reminds listeners that small, steady efforts often produce remarkable long-term change. Helpful TEAM-CBT Strategies Discussed Kevin describes how simply sitting down with the Daily Mood Log often quiets his racing mind and helps him focus on what truly matters. David recommends another powerful exercise: Negative Practice Instead of fighting racing thoughts: Schedule a few minutes. Record every negative thought without challenging them. Then listen back to the recording. Many people discover that simply hearing their thoughts aloud changes their relationship to them. Matt also emphasizes several uncovering techniques that help identify the deeper beliefs generating so many automatic thoughts, including: The What-If Technique Individual Downward Arrow Cost-Benefit Analysis Positive Reframing Rather than trying to "think positively," TEAM-CBT first helps eliminate the hidden resistance that makes positive thoughts difficult to believe. A Quick Speed Round Near the end of the episode, David introduces a new experiment: Rapid-fire Ask David answers. In just thirty seconds, he explains one of the central concepts from Feeling Great: The Four Deaths of the Self The death of the Special Self (depression) The death of the Fearful Self (anxiety) The death of the Angry, Blaming Self (relationship conflict) The death of the Entitled Pleasure-Seeking Self (habits and addictions) David explains that each "death" ultimately reveals something surprising: There was never anything essential to lose—only freedom to gain. Listener Feedback The team asks for your input: Would you rather hear: Longer, in-depth discussions of just a few questions? Faster "speed round" answers covering many listener questions? Let them know through this week's listener survey. Resources Mentioned Feeling Great by Dr. David Burns The Feeling Great App Episode 507: Mastering the Daily Mood Log: Small Details, Life-Changing Results Daily Mood Log Memorable Takeaways Self-compassion is often the first step toward becoming the parent you want to be. Your emotional suffering usually comes from your thoughts—not from other people's behavior. You don't need to defeat every negative thought to feel dramatically better. Practice emotional skills when you're calm so they're available when emotions run high. Small, consistent Daily Mood Log work can create profound change over time. As always, thank you for listening to the Feeling Good Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and send us your questions—you just might hear them discussed on a future Ask David episode. Contact Information You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app. Feeling Great feels wonderful! You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT! Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

  6. Aug 10

    Ask David w/ Dr. Matt May

    514: Ask David w/ Dr. Matt May Schizophrenia, Resistance, TEAM's Future, and What Makes a Great Therapist In this thought-provoking Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and special guest Dr. Matt May, psychiatrist, TEAM-CBT therapist, and longtime colleague of Dr. Burns. Together, they tackle challenging listener questions about schizophrenia, emotional suffering, resistance to change, therapist training, and the future of psychotherapy. Along the way, the conversation becomes deeply personal as David reflects on the qualities that shaped the development of TEAM-CBT, his hopes and concerns for the future of psychotherapy, and the lessons he's learned after decades of clinical work. Our Special Guest: Dr. Matt May Kevin welcomes Dr. Matt May back to the podcast. Matt is a psychiatrist trained at Stanford who has worked closely with David for more than twenty years. Although trained in psychiatry, Matt explains that his work today focuses almost entirely on TEAM-CBT rather than medication management. David praises Matt as one of the most gifted therapists he has ever known, highlighting his warmth, compassion, humility, and clinical expertise. Question #1: Can TEAM-CBT Help the Negative Symptoms of Schizophrenia? A listener asks whether TEAM-CBT can help with the so-called "three A's" of schizophrenia: Apathy Avolition (severe lack of motivation) Anhedonia (loss of pleasure) or whether medication is the primary treatment. David's Response David challenges the assumptions behind the question itself. Rather than viewing people through the lens of diagnostic labels and symptoms, he emphasizes that TEAM-CBT begins by asking: "What would you like help with?" He argues that therapists often fall into the trap of acting like experts who believe they already know what a patient needs based on a diagnosis. TEAM-CBT takes the opposite approach, focusing on the individual person's goals, struggles, and hopes. David shares an early experience treating a patient with schizophrenia. Initially, he tried to challenge the patient's delusional beliefs directly through cognitive techniques. When the patient simply reinterpreted the evidence to support the delusion, David realized he was pursuing his own agenda rather than the patient's. The lesson: TEAM-CBT focuses on helping people with the problems they want help with—not on treating diagnostic labels. Key Takeaways Diagnosis does not define the person. People with schizophrenia may still want help with relationships, mood, habits, goals, or self-esteem. Effective therapy begins with understanding what matters to the individual. Humility is often more helpful than expertise. Question #2: What About Trauma, Brain Circuits, and "Underlying Vulnerabilities"? A listener asks whether present-moment thoughts are only part of the picture and whether deeper emotional circuitry, stress physiology, or network-level brain changes also contribute to emotional suffering. The listener also wonders whether cognitive therapy truly processes emotions like grief, fear, shame, and anger—or merely suppresses them. Matt's Perspective Matt offers a practical example from his own life. One afternoon he found himself flooded with depressive thoughts and self-critical feelings. He suddenly felt hopeless, inadequate, and discouraged. Then he realized: He had skipped lunch and was extremely hungry. After eating, the negative thoughts disappeared. His point is that physical states matter. Sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, illness, intoxication, and other biological factors can influence how easily negative thoughts arise and how difficult they are to challenge. David's Perspective David distinguishes sharply between: Healthy negative emotions Distorted emotional suffering He revisits a story from his medical school years, describing the death of a beloved elderly patient whose family gathered around him during his final moments. Everyone cried. David cried too. But that sadness was not depression. The grief emerged naturally from loving thoughts and genuine loss. In contrast, depression is fueled by distorted thoughts such as: "I'm worthless." "I'm not good enough." "Things will never get better." TEAM-CBT seeks to eliminate distorted suffering while preserving healthy human emotions. Key Takeaways Healthy grief is not a disorder. TEAM-CBT does not suppress genuine emotions. Depression, anxiety, shame, and hopelessness often arise from distorted thoughts that can be transformed. Biological factors matter, but thoughts remain a powerful therapeutic target. Question #3: What's the Biggest Misunderstanding Therapists Have About TEAM-CBT? A listener asks: When teaching clinicians, what misunderstanding should be corrected first? The belief that resistance means the patient is difficult? Or the belief that techniques alone are enough? David's Answer David emphasizes that TEAM is a system: Testing → Empathy → Agenda Setting → Methods Many therapists focus immediately on techniques and interventions. But before methods can work: The therapist must develop genuine empathy. The therapist must uncover resistance to change. Without empathy, patients don't feel understood. Without addressing resistance, therapists often end up arguing with their patients. David explains that people usually have many good reasons not to change. TEAM-CBT helps bring those reasons into awareness and resolve them before attempting intervention. Matt's Answer Matt reflects on his own training with David. He recalls spending countless hours learning empathy and discovering how difficult it is not to jump in with advice, reassurance, or premature solutions. According to Matt: Most therapists are tempted to help too quickly. Many accidentally create resistance by pushing for change. Understanding resistance is often one of the most challenging skills to master. Kevin's Perspective Kevin notes that TEAM itself naturally provides the roadmap: First learn testing. Then learn empathy. Then learn agenda setting. Only afterward focus on methods. The sequence protects therapists from moving too quickly into problem-solving. Question #4: What Is the Future of TEAM-CBT? A listener named Vlad writes a heartfelt letter reflecting on the transition from Rhonda Barovsky's co-hosting role and asking: What is the future of TEAM-CBT? How might it evolve? What personal qualities allowed David to create such an influential therapeutic framework? David on the Future of TEAM David explains that much of his current work focuses on preserving and sharing TEAM-CBT for future generations. Examples include: Recorded therapy sessions Training materials His psychotherapy eBook Psychology Today articles The Feeling Good Podcast The Feeling Great app He hopes future therapists will continue refining, expanding, and improving the methods. At the same time, David expresses disappointment that many mental health professionals have shown limited interest in approaches that emphasize rapid, measurable change. He remains committed to the possibility that therapy can become far more effective than it is today. The Personal Qualities Behind TEAM-CBT Matt identifies several characteristics he believes contributed to David's success: Intense Curiosity David never accepted conventional wisdom simply because others believed it. He continually asked: "What actually works?" Intellectual Honesty David consistently measures outcomes and learns from failures rather than defending cherished theories. Humility Rather than seeing himself as the expert, David allows patients to become his teachers. Compassion According to Matt, David's genuine concern for human suffering gives life to the science. Grit and Persistence David spent decades refining techniques, collecting data, developing tools, and challenging accepted assumptions. Discussion of AI and the Future of Therapy The conversation also touches on the Feeling Great app and artificial intelligence. David explains that the app was designed to deliver many TEAM-CBT principles to people who might not otherwise have access to therapy. He remains hopeful that technology can help make effective treatment more widely available while preserving the human values at the heart of psychotherapy. Memorable Themes from This Episode People are more important than diagnoses. Healthy sadness is different from depression. Empathy comes before technique. Resistance is not a problem—it is information. Great therapists remain curious and humble. Real innovation begins with measuring outcomes. Compassion and science work best together. Resources Mentioned Feeling Great App Psychology Today articles by David Burns Episode 49 featuring Marilyn's transformational session Listener Survey We'd love to hear from you! Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode. Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling. Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast! Contact Information You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app. Feeling Great feels wonderful! You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT! Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love an

  7. Aug 3

    Grandma's Snake Phobia

    Grandma's Snake Phobia The Real Cause of Her Anxiety Hosts: Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Dr. David Burns What if anxiety isn't the problem? What if anxiety is actually a message? In this fascinating episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius explore one of the most intriguing concepts in TEAM-CBT: the Hidden Emotion Technique. Using the memorable case of "Grandma's Snake Phobia," David explains why some forms of anxiety persist despite cognitive techniques, exposure exercises, and logical reassurance—and how uncovering an unrecognized emotional truth can sometimes lead to astonishingly rapid recovery. David shares the story of an elderly woman who suddenly developed a crippling fear of snakes despite spending her entire life comfortably around them. While most therapists might have focused on treating the phobia itself, David suspected that the anxiety was serving another purpose entirely. As the conversation unfolds, listeners learn how anxiety can function as a symbolic message from the subconscious mind, drawing attention to feelings, needs, conflicts, or desires that have been pushed out of awareness. David also shares the remarkable story of the patient whose panic attacks and nausea at work led him to first discover the Hidden Emotion Technique, as well as a deeply personal story involving his own struggle with anxiety and professional conflict. Along the way, David and Kevin discuss why highly anxious people are often some of the kindest and most compassionate individuals, how "niceness" can sometimes fuel anxiety, and why learning to honor our feelings may be one of the most important steps toward recovery. In This Episode Why traditional cognitive and behavioral approaches sometimes only partially relieve anxiety The origins of the Hidden Emotion Technique The surprising connection between anxiety and excessive "niceness" Why anxiety may be a symbolic message rather than a malfunction The case of Grandma's sudden snake phobia How unspoken fears about aging and dependence fueled anxiety Why simply becoming aware of a hidden emotion is not enough The critical action step that completes the Hidden Emotion Technique The story of the young woman whose job was literally making her sick How suppressed dreams and unexpressed desires can trigger anxiety symptoms David's personal experience discovering a hidden source of anxiety in his own life The role of conflict avoidance, people-pleasing, and "emotophobia" Why the hidden emotion is almost always happening in the present—not buried in childhood How anxious symptoms often function as symbolic clues to what's really wrong Practical ways to begin exploring hidden emotions in your own life Key Insights from David "Anxiety is our subconscious mind trying to get our attention and tell us something important that our conscious minds can't seem to see." "The ultimate fear in anxiety is often the fear of your own feelings." "Only nice people develop anxiety disorders." "The hidden emotion isn't the fear itself. The fear is conscious. The hidden emotion is the feeling you believe you're not supposed to have." "Anxiety never comes out of the blue. It comes from our lives and our hearts." The Hidden Emotion Technique: Two Essential Steps Step 1: Discover the Hidden Emotion Identify the feeling, desire, conflict, or unmet need that has been pushed out of conscious awareness. Common examples include: Anger that feels unacceptable Unexpressed disappointment A desire you feel guilty about wanting Conflict you're avoiding A dream you've abandoned A need you're afraid to ask for Step 2: Take Action Recovery occurs when you: Express the avoided feeling honestly Address the underlying problem directly Have the difficult conversation you've been avoiding Honor the need or dream you've been neglecting As David emphasizes, insight alone rarely eliminates anxiety. The transformation occurs when awareness is followed by action. Why "Nice" People Often Struggle with Anxiety David describes a pattern he has observed repeatedly throughout his career: Many anxious individuals: Want everyone to be happy Avoid conflict at all costs Feel responsible for others' feelings Believe they should never feel angry Fear disappointing people Suppress their own needs and desires When these feelings remain hidden, anxiety can emerge as a signal that something important needs attention. Questions for Reflection Is there something important you're not telling someone? Are you avoiding a conflict because you don't want to upset anyone? Have you been ignoring a dream, desire, or need that matters deeply to you? Do your anxiety symptoms seem symbolic in any way? Is there a feeling you've decided you're "not supposed" to have? Resources Mentioned Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns When Panic Attacks by David Burns David's recent Psychology Today article, "Grandma's Snake Phobia: The Real Cause of Her Anxiety" Listener Survey We'd love to hear from you! Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode. Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling. Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast! Contact Information Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app. Feeling Great feels wonderful! You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT! Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

  8. Jul 27

    512: The Myth of Slow Healing

    The Myth of Slow Healing Why Rapid Recovery Is Possible Featuring Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius, LMFT Many people believe emotional healing takes months—or even years. Therapists are often trained to expect gradual progress, and patients may assume lasting change requires prolonged struggle. But what if that assumption is wrong? In this episode, Dr. David Burns challenges one of the most deeply entrenched beliefs in mental health: the idea that meaningful psychological recovery must happen slowly. Drawing from his recent Psychology Today article, The Myth of Slow Healing, Dr. Burns explains why rapid emotional change is not only possible—it may actually reflect how the human brain naturally works. Through powerful clinical stories, personal reflections, and decades of research, Dr. Burns describes how depression, anxiety, panic, shame, and hopelessness can sometimes disappear in a matter of minutes when people discover and challenge the distorted thoughts driving their suffering. What Inspired This Article? Dr. Burns begins by sharing a formative experience from his psychiatric residency in Philadelphia. As a young psychiatrist, he noticed something troubling: psychotherapy often seemed to continue indefinitely, yet measurable recovery was rarely discussed. Therapists relied heavily on intuition, but almost no one was systematically measuring whether patients were actually improving. A walk through Fairmount Park sparked an insight that would transform his career. Thinking about professional basketball players improving through constant feedback—seeing whether the ball goes through the hoop—he wondered: How can therapists improve if they never measure whether their sessions are helping? This question led him to become one of the earliest advocates for routine outcome measurement in psychotherapy, eventually helping shape the development of TEAM-CBT's session-by-session assessment system. The Importance of Measurement Dr. Burns discusses his early use of the Beck Depression Inventory and the surprising lessons it taught him. Again and again, he discovered that his assumptions about how patients felt were often wrong: Some patients appeared severely depressed but reported relatively mild symptoms. Others seemed cheerful and functional while scoring in the severe range. These experiences reinforced an important lesson: Therapists need data, not guesses. By measuring depression, anxiety, empathy, and therapeutic effectiveness during every session, therapists can receive the feedback necessary to improve their work and help patients more effectively. The Caveman Effect: Why the Brain Can Change Instantly One of the episode's most memorable concepts is what Dr. Burns calls the "Caveman Effect." Borrowing an illustration from neuroscientist Mark Noble, he describes a prehistoric human hearing a twig snap behind him at dusk. The caveman immediately thinks: "A tiger is behind me!" Instantly, fear surges. Then he turns around and discovers the sound came from his wife stepping on a branch. In that moment, his fear vanishes. Not gradually. Not over six months. Instantly. Dr. Burns argues that this illustrates a fundamental principle: Thoughts create emotions. When a frightening thought is believed, anxiety emerges. When that thought is no longer believed, anxiety disappears. This process can happen in seconds. Three Levels of "Shortness" Dr. Burns describes three different ways emotional healing can occur rapidly. 1. Therapy Can Be Brief Many patients experience dramatic improvements within a single two-hour session. Rather than expecting treatment to continue indefinitely, Dr. Burns often approaches therapy with the goal of achieving complete symptom remission as quickly as possible. 2. Breakthroughs Often Happen in Minutes Even within a session, the most important change frequently occurs during a short window—sometimes only a few minutes long. Once therapists identify the specific distorted thoughts maintaining the problem and apply an effective intervention, major shifts can happen quickly. 3. The Moment of Enlightenment The most dramatic change often occurs in a matter of seconds. This is the moment when someone suddenly sees: Their negative belief isn't true. They've been deceiving themselves. A different perspective is possible. When this realization occurs, emotions can shift almost instantly. Dr. Burns compares this experience to the caveman discovering there was never a tiger at all. Why People Resist the Idea of Rapid Recovery If rapid healing is possible, why do so many people reject the concept? Dr. Burns identifies several reasons: For Patients Many people have spent years struggling with depression or anxiety. The idea that change could happen quickly may sound unrealistic or even fraudulent. After repeated disappointments, hope itself can feel dangerous. For Therapists Rapid recovery also challenges many traditional assumptions about psychotherapy. It raises uncomfortable questions: Why aren't outcomes being measured? Why do some treatments continue for years without substantial change? What happens to a therapist's business model when patients recover quickly? Dr. Burns and Kevin discuss how financial incentives can sometimes unintentionally reinforce longer treatments, even when faster recovery may be possible. The Story of Terry: Ten Years of Panic Gone in One Session One of the episode's most powerful moments is Dr. Burns' retelling of Terry's story. Terry suffered from: Severe depression Crippling panic attacks Nearly ten years of unsuccessful treatment Her symptoms were extreme, with depression and anxiety scores among the highest Dr. Burns had ever seen. The key breakthrough came when he identified the specific thought driving her panic: "I'm about to have a heart attack." Using an experimental technique, Dr. Burns intentionally helped Terry induce panic symptoms in session. Then he challenged her catastrophic belief through direct experience. If she were truly having a heart attack: Could she jog in place? Could she exercise vigorously? Could she do jumping jacks? As Terry performed increasingly strenuous activity, she suddenly realized the absurdity of her belief. Then came the breakthrough moment. She laughed. The fear disappeared. And a decade of panic ended. The episode emphasizes that it was not the jumping jacks themselves that created recovery. It was the moment she stopped believing the distorted thought. Why Thoughts Matter Dr. Burns revisits three core principles of cognitive therapy: Principle 1 Your emotions result from your thoughts—not directly from events. Principle 2 The thoughts creating depression and anxiety are typically distorted. Common distortions include: All-or-nothing thinking Fortune telling Emotional reasoning Mind reading Self-blame Principle 3 The moment you stop believing a distorted thought, your emotions will change. This principle remains central to TEAM-CBT and forms the foundation for many rapid recoveries. Beyond Cognition: The Role of Motivation Later in the discussion, Dr. Burns explains that distorted thoughts are only part of the story. Another critical factor is motivation. People often have powerful reasons for holding onto painful feelings. Depression, anxiety, anger, guilt, and shame frequently reflect important personal values. For example: Perfectionism may reflect high standards. Guilt may reflect a strong conscience. Anxiety may reflect caring deeply about others. Rather than arguing patients out of their symptoms, TEAM-CBT often begins by exploring what those symptoms reveal about the person's strengths and values. Benny's Story: The Power of Acceptance To illustrate this paradoxical approach, Dr. Burns shares the story of Benny. Benny was: Suicidal Violent Deeply depressed Involved in gangs, drugs, and crime Rather than confronting Benny's hopelessness, Dr. Burns did something unexpected. He explored all the advantages of believing: "I'm a hopeless case." Together they listed the benefits: Status Power Money Protection Identity For the first time, Benny felt understood rather than judged. Then his defenses collapsed. He revealed a lifetime of hidden pain, including witnessing his grandfather's suicide and struggling with illiteracy. The story illustrates a central paradox of TEAM-CBT: People often change only after they feel completely accepted exactly as they are. What Dr. Burns Has Learned About Human Nature After decades of witnessing rapid recovery, Dr. Burns says one conclusion feels increasingly clear: Thoughts create emotions. Yet he also emphasizes a deeper question: Why do some people generate so many painful thoughts in the first place? His answer increasingly involves: Core values Motivation Human meaning Personal strengths that become exaggerated Understanding both cognition and motivation has become essential to creating lasting change. Key Takeaways Emotional healing does not require months or years. The brain is capable of extraordinarily rapid change. Thoughts—not events themselves—create emotions. Distorted thoughts fuel depression and anxiety. When distorted thoughts lose their credibility, emotions often change immediately. Measurement and feedback are critical to effective therapy. Motivation and personal values play a major role in emotional suffering. Acceptance often creates more change than persuasion. Recovery can happen much faster than most people realize. Resources Mentioned Feeling Good by David D. Burns Intensive Therapy at Feeling Good Institute The Psychology Today article: The Myth of Slow Healing The video demonstration of Terry's panic attack treatment Coming Next Episode Dr. Burns and Kevin continue the conversation with a fascinating discussion of: "Grandma's Snake Phobia: The Real Cause of Her Anxiety" You'll learn about the Hidden Emotion Model and discover why th

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This podcast features David D. Burns MD, author of "Feeling Good, The New Mood Therapy," describing powerful new techniques to overcome depression and anxiety and develop greater joy and self-esteem. For therapists and the general public alike!

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