The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide with Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy

Curt Widhalm, LMFT and Katie Vernoy, LMFT
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The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Where Therapists Live, Breathe, and Practice as Human Beings It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when clinicians must develop a personal brand to market their private practices, and are connecting over social media, engaging in social activism, pushing back against mental health stigma, and facing a whole new style of entrepreneurship. To support you as a whole person, a business owner, and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.

  1. 1d ago

    What It Means to Be a Modern Therapist: The Principles That Guide Our Work

    What It Means to Be a Modern Therapist: The Principles That Guide Our Work Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT, on the principles that define a sustainable, ethical, modern therapy practice. After nearly nine years and almost 500 episodes, Curt and Katie step back to name what the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide actually stands for. This episode lays out the guiding principles behind the show, the standards they hold and the practices they refuse, and reintroduces the hosts and the experience that shapes how they show up. Across nearly a decade of conversations, the same themes keep resurfacing. Therapists are human first, and neutrality is more myth than reality. Sustainability is a professional responsibility, not a luxury, which means martyrdom, self-sacrifice, and exploitative business models are no-goes rather than badges of dedication. Clinical depth matters more than ever in an era of influencer psychology, short-form content, and AI. Representation and inclusion strengthen the field, while gatekeeping and elitism weaken it. Systems shape practice in ways no amount of self-care can fix. Therapists are stewards of their own profession through advocacy, leadership, and calling each other in. And the work has to keep evolving, met with critical thinking rather than fear-based rejection or unexamined enthusiasm. Curt and Katie also explain why they are naming these principles now: to frame a run of upcoming deep dives that take these themes further with guests and conversations built to move past lip service. Taken together, the principles work less like a mission statement and more like a filter for the decisions therapists face every week, from which job to take to which trend to adopt and which one to let pass. Whether you have listened since the beginning or found the show last week, this is a clear look at where Curt and Katie are coming from, and an invitation to build a practice that is more human, more sustainable, and more connected to a community of therapists working through the same questions you are. In this episode, we discuss: - Why "therapists are human first" still matters in an era of corporate consolidation and AI - How to build a sustainable practice free from martyrdom - What keeps clinical depth relevant against influencer psychology and short-form content - Why representation, inclusion, and systems awareness strengthen the whole field - How therapists can act as stewards of the profession without shaming or policing - What it looks like to evolve with the field through critical thinking, not fear or hype Timestamps: - 00:15 - Nine years in: why this episode now - 02:54 - Curt and Katie reintroduce themselves - 06:46 - The modern therapist principles and no-goes - 07:09 - Therapists are human first - 10:26 - Sustainability as a fundamental responsibility - 12:49 - Clinical depth over simplification - 16:21 - Representation and inclusion strengthen the field - 18:57 - Systems shape practice - 20:49 - Therapists as stewards of the profession - 22:55 - Evolving with the field through critical thinking - 25:21 - An invitation to join the community Full show notes and resources: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    What It Means to Be a Modern Therapist: The Principles That Guide Our Work

  2. Jul 27

    Are We Really Better at Empathy Than the Bots? What the Research Says About AI in Therapy

    Are We Really Better at Empathy Than the Bots? What the Research Says About AI in Therapy AI in therapy, therapy chatbots, and AI empathy: what the latest research actually says, and what it means for your clinical work. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT close out AI month by setting the hot takes aside and looking at what the research actually says about AI in mental health. They walk through the Dartmouth Therabot randomized controlled trial, where an expert-built, safety-monitored therapy chatbot outperformed a waitlist control, and a Communications Psychology study in which third-party raters judged AI-generated responses as more compassionate than those of expert human crisis responders. The findings are uncomfortable, and that's the point. In short in-the-moment exchanges, AI empathy can read as warmer than a human's, which is exactly the kind of result that makes therapists defensive. Curt and Katie talk through what these studies do and do not show, why a quick hit of empathy is not the same as a real therapeutic relationship, and the safety risks of consumer-grade chatbots that can validate delusions or miss a crisis. This is a conversation about staying credible instead of fearful: getting literate about AI therapy tools, talking with clients honestly about where these tools help and where they are dangerous, and leaning into the clinical depth, presence, and human connection that AI cannot fake. In this episode, we discuss: - What the Therabot trial really shows about AI therapy chatbots: better than a waitlist, not better than a human therapist - Why third-party raters judged AI as more compassionate than expert crisis responders - The difference between in-the-moment empathy and the long-term therapeutic relationship - How sycophancy and "context pollution" can make AI empathy feel good while keeping clients stuck - The safety risks of consumer-grade chatbots, and the regulation starting to address them - How to talk with clients about AI in a way that makes you more credible, not less Timestamps: 00:15 - Welcome and the two traps therapists fall into with AI 06:24 - The Therabot trial: AI therapy chatbots vs. a waitlist control 09:14 - Do people rate AI as more empathetic than human responders? 12:56 - Sycophancy, context pollution, and deceptive empathy 19:40 - Safety, crisis risk, and the regulation that is coming 26:27 - What people actually want in a crisis moment 35:45 - Be credible, not fearful: talking with clients about AI 37:40 - Deliver what AI can't fake: presence and clinical depth 41:36 - Closing: be aggressively human Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    Are We Really Better at Empathy Than the Bots? What the Research Says About AI in Therapy

  3. Jul 23

    How AI Tools for Therapists Are Built: Trust, Data Privacy, and Choosing What to Adopt - An Interview with Ian Knox and Megan Toomey of SimplePractice

    How AI Tools for Therapists Are Built: Trust, Data Privacy, and Choosing What to Adopt - An Interview with Ian Knox and Megan Toomey Ian Knox and Megan Toomey of SimplePractice take therapists behind the scenes of how AI tools for mental health are actually built, trained, and kept secure. We're in the middle of AI month, and Curt and Katie wanted to move past the buzzwords and talk with the people who actually engineer this technology. As part of the show's partnership with SimplePractice, they sit down with Ian Knox, Chief Product Officer, and Megan Toomey, Sr. Director of Clinical Support AI Product Management, to pull back the curtain on how AI tools for therapists get designed, what "training the model" really means, and how client data is handled. They get specific about what to evaluate before adopting any AI tool, from vendor trust and HIPAA compliance to data practices, and why note taking is the most mature use case while insurance, scheduling, intake, and referral matching are still emerging. Ian and Megan also take on the fear that AI-first companies want to replace therapists, and explain why clinicians have to stay at the center of care and review anything they put their name on. This is a grounded, practical conversation for any therapist trying to decide what AI belongs in their practice, and what to be cautious about, without panic or hype. In this episode, we discuss: - How an EHR decides which clinician tasks AI is mature enough to help with - What to evaluate before trusting an AI vendor with client data - Why "HIPAA compliant" is a floor, not proof of strong security - What "training the model" does and does not mean, and why SimplePractice says it is not training an LLM on your data - How transcripts are retained, and the new opt-in for de-identified data - Why you remain responsible for every AI-assisted note you sign - How to talk with clients about AI and get meaningful consent Timestamps: 00:16 - AI month, and why we wanted to talk to people who build AI 01:33 - Who Ian and Megan are 03:21 - SimplePractice's history with AI tools 05:38 - What therapists should know when adding AI to a practice 08:44 - Where clinicians can streamline with AI 12:23 - How to choose which AI features to adopt 16:10 - Why you can't fully trust AI, and best practices 19:29 - What clinicians should know about their data 21:13 - The Trust Center, and "are you here to replace therapists?" 23:55 - How AI systems are trained (the puppy analogy) 27:00 - White-label LLMs and the "golden data set" 29:11 - De-identified transcripts and the opt-in 31:40 - Current tools and the product roadmap Guest bios: Ian Knox is Chief Product Officer at SimplePractice, with prior product leadership at Expedia and Microsoft. Megan Toomey is Sr. Director of Clinical Support AI Product Management at SimplePractice, leading the team building AI tools for behavioral health clinicians, with prior experience at Microsoft and Amazon. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    How AI Tools for Therapists Are Built: Trust, Data Privacy, and Choosing What to Adopt - An Interview with Ian Knox and Megan Toomey of SimplePractice

  4. Jul 20

    When Clients Bring AI to Therapy: Working with ChatGPT, Sycophancy, and the New Third Wheel in the Room

    When Clients Bring AI to Therapy: Working with ChatGPT, Sycophancy, and the New Third Wheel in the Room Clients are bringing AI into therapy, from ChatGPT chat logs handed over as homework to AI companions that never disagree, and therapists need a clinical response. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT dig into what happens when clients bring their own AI into the therapy room. The profession built ethics guidance for when therapists send clients toward AI, but it largely sidestepped the reality already showing up in sessions: clients processing the same issues with ChatGPT between appointments, using chatbots to interpret and respond to relationships, and increasingly offloading their social and dating lives onto AI companions. Drawing on emerging research about chatbot use, loneliness, emotional dependence, and sycophancy, Curt and Katie make the case that concern is more useful than alarm. Clients are already using these tools, so the clinical task is to assess how and why they are using them, provide psychoeducation on sycophancy, confidentiality, and safety, and separate the healthy, adaptive uses from the problematic ones. They also share concrete in-session moves: entering the opposite position to expose how a chatbot validates any side, reframing how clients use AI for medical and diagnostic questions, and recognizing when AI has become a client's primary support system, along with how to begin weaning a client back toward real-world connection. In this episode, we discuss: - The three main ways clients are bringing AI into the therapy room - Why a client's AI use can be a clinical opportunity, not only a risk - How to assess the function and pattern of a client's AI use - What the research suggests about chatbot use, loneliness, and sycophancy - How to teach critical thinking and protect client confidentiality - What to do when a client has become dependent on AI Timestamps: 00:15 - AI as the new "third wheel" in the therapy room 04:15 - Three ways AI is showing up in clients' lives 05:55 - What the research suggests: loneliness, dependence, and sycophancy 10:24 - Why client AI use can be a clinical opportunity 13:24 - Assessing use and treating chatbots as public spaces 18:17 - Explaining AI's mechanics: it is not an objective third party 20:14 - A critical-thinking exercise: enter the opposite position 24:47 - Using AI for medical and diagnostic questions 30:53 - When a client is already dependent on AI Full show notes and resources: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    When Clients Bring AI to Therapy: Working with ChatGPT, Sycophancy, and the New Third Wheel in the Room

  5. Jul 13

    Why AI Mental Health Chatbots Fail When It Matters Most: The Hidden Vulnerabilities Stress-Testing Reveals – An Interview with Shirali and Arul Nigam of Circuit Breaker Labs

    Why AI Mental Health Chatbots Fail When It Matters Most: The Hidden Vulnerabilities Stress-Testing Reveals - An Interview with Shirali and Arul Nigam of Circuit Breaker Labs Shirali and Arul Nigam of Circuit Breaker Labs on why AI mental health chatbots fail, how stress-testing exposes their hidden vulnerabilities, and what therapists need to know. Curt and Katie talk with Shirali and Arul Nigam, the sibling co-founders of Circuit Breaker Labs, about what therapists tend to get wrong about AI, why the safety infrastructure behind many mental health chatbots is weaker than it looks, and how their team stress-tests these tools to find dangerous failures before real users ever encounter them. Generative AI is probabilistic, so the same prompt can return a safe answer one moment and a harmful one the next. Shirali and Arul explain how guardrails get bypassed by a misspelled word, a teenager's slang, or the hundredth message in a long conversation, why mental health chatbots tend to fail in the moments that matter most, and what stress-testing hundreds of thousands of simulated conversations actually reveals about model safety. The conversation closes on what clinicians can do now, why clinical insight is the missing ingredient in AI safety, and why third-party validation is becoming the standard regulators and developers expect. Used well, AI can be a supplement to care or a gateway to a human therapist, but it is not a replacement, and getting there safely starts with building clinical insight in from the foundation. In this episode, we discuss: - Why people usually turn to AI in place of no care, not in place of a therapist - Why generative AI's unpredictability, not a single bad answer, is the real safety problem - How a misspelling, slang, or a long conversation can slip past chatbot guardrails - Why AI mental health chatbots tend to fail in the highest-risk moments - What stress-testing hundreds of thousands of conversations reveals about model safety - Why clinical insight is the missing ingredient, and what clinicians can do now Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 1:38 - Meet Shirali and Arul Nigam and Circuit Breaker Labs 3:37 - What therapists get wrong about AI 5:28 - Deterministic versus generative AI, and why the risk scales 8:26 - The safety problem in AI mental health: trust, training data, and agreeableness 11:29 - Guardrails, lifeguard models, and the 988 problem 17:30 - Deploying clinical insight at scale and building safety in from the start 21:09 - How stress-testing works: context pollution and adversarial simulation 27:11 - What the stress tests reveal: variance, typos, and bypassed guardrails 30:59 - Regulation, credential hallucination, and third-party validation 36:58 - What clinicians can do, and the missing clinical insight 40:20 - Where to find Circuit Breaker Labs Guest Bios: Shirali and Arul Nigam are siblings and the co-founders of Circuit Breaker Labs, which autonomously pressure-tests the AI systems that interact with people to find hidden mental health vulnerabilities before they reach real users. Shirali brings expertise in neuroscience, translational research, and clinical work, with experience at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute's Janelia Research Campus, NIH NINDS, Harvard's Wyss Institute, Johns Hopkins, and Children's National. She holds a BS in Biomedical Engineering from The George Washington University and an MBA from The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania. Arul has conducted technical and policy research on ethical AI, with a focus on bias and fairness, at Georgetown University and Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, and holds a BSBA in Operations and Analytics from Georgetown University. Learn more at circuitbreakerlabs.ai. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    Why AI Mental Health Chatbots Fail When It Matters Most: The Hidden Vulnerabilities Stress-Testing Reveals – An Interview with Shirali and Arul Nigam of Circuit Breaker Labs

  6. Jul 6

    AI Ethics Codes for Therapists: What CAMFT, APA, NASW, and AAMFT Now Require

    AI Ethics Codes for Therapists: What CAMFT, APA, NASW, and AAMFT Now Require How the CAMFT, APA, NASW, and AAMFT ethics codes now regulate AI in therapy: a CE podcourse on competence, informed consent, data privacy, bias, and human accountability. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT, walk through the recent artificial intelligence updates to the major mental health ethics codes. Centering on the new CAMFT updates and cross-referencing the APA, NASW, ACA, and AAMFT codes, they turn the new language into a practical roadmap for everyday clinical work. The conversation covers what competence with AI actually requires (closer to safely driving a car than building one), the three CAMFT obligations that travel together (disclosure, informed consent, and informed decision making), and a client's right to opt out. They get specific on data privacy, including business associate agreements and why "HIPAA compliant" is a marketing claim rather than a certification, on spotting demographic and medical-model bias in AI output, and on why the human in the loop still owns and is accountable for anything signed under their name. This continuing education podcourse is for therapists, supervisors, and clinical educators who want to use AI tools ethically and stay accountable in an automated world. In this episode, we discuss: - Why the codes aim for broad, durable AI principles instead of tool-specific rules - What competence with AI actually requires of a clinician - The three CAMFT obligations: disclosure, informed consent, and informed decision making - How to vet data privacy, including BAAs and why "HIPAA compliant" is only marketing - How to catch demographic and medical-model bias in AI output - Why the clinician remains responsible for anything produced under their name Timestamps: - 0:55 - Why the ethics codes are updating for AI - 3:30 - Defining artificial intelligence (California AB 2885) - 9:49 - The four Beauchamp and Childress principles - 12:28 - Timeline: CAMFT, APA, NASW, and AAMFT updates - 16:11 - Competence and the "driving a car" metaphor - 21:09 - Disclosure, informed consent, and the right to opt out - 33:18 - Data privacy, BAAs, and "HIPAA compliant" as marketing - 41:20 - Bias, social justice, and reading the output - 44:52 - The human in the loop and accountability - 53:12 - Is AI right for this client? - 1:00:59 - Supervision, education, and the AI vetting guide 1 CE unit is available through the Modern Therapist Learning Community: moderntherapistcommunity.com Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    AI Ethics Codes for Therapists: What CAMFT, APA, NASW, and AAMFT Now Require

  7. Jun 29

    Supporting Conversion Therapy Survivors After Chiles v. Salazar: SOGIECE, Clinical Care, and Community Response – An Interview with Samuel Nieves

    Supporting Conversion Therapy Survivors After Chiles v. Salazar: SOGIECE, Clinical Care, and Community Response - An Interview with Samuel Nieves Samuel Nieves of the Conversion Therapy Survivor Network on supporting conversion therapy survivors, recognizing SOGIECE, and clinical care after Chiles v. Salazar. Curt and Katie welcome back Samuel Nieves, a conversion therapy survivor and board member of the Conversion Therapy Survivor Network, for a follow-up to their earlier conversation and to the host-led discussion of the Chiles v. Salazar decision. Rather than re-litigating the legal details, they focus on the clinical and human aftermath for survivors. Sam shares what he saw the day the ruling came down, how to recognize a conversion therapy survivor on your caseload (including memory loss and shifting narratives), why validation has to come before strengths work, and how to lead with curiosity instead of challenge. He explains SOGIECE, sexual orientation and gender identity or expression change efforts, and why naming it can be the validation that lets a survivor finally call their experience what it was. The conversation also sits with why reducing these practices to "speech" misses the harm, what licensing boards and clinicians owe survivors, and how survivors and the advocates who serve them stay in the work through firm boundaries and intentional queer joy. This is a grounded, affirming episode for any clinician working with LGBTQ+ clients. In this episode, we discuss: - How to recognize a conversion therapy survivor on your caseload - Why validation has to come before strengths-based work - How to lead with curiosity instead of challenge with traumatized clients - What SOGIECE is and why naming it can be profoundly validating - Why framing conversion therapy as "speech" misses the real harm - What licensing boards and the profession owe survivors - How survivors and advocates sustain themselves through boundaries and queer joy Timestamps: - 02:00 - Who Sam is and the Conversion Therapy Survivor Network - 03:14 - The day the Chiles v. Salazar decision came down - 06:26 - Validation before strengths with survivors - 09:04 - What well-meaning therapists can miss - 11:10 - The public "permission" and its harm to survivors - 18:40 - Why "it's just speech" misses the harm - 22:10 - SOGIECE, allies, and survivor organizations - 27:45 - What the profession owes survivors - 32:21 - Solution-focused therapy, ACT, and queer joy - 35:01 - How Sam sustains himself in the work Guest Bio: Samuel Nieves (he/they) is a board member of the Conversion Therapy Survivor Network, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit supporting survivors of conversion therapy and SOGIECE worldwide. Trained as a marriage and family therapist, Sam advocates online as "CantPrayMeAway" and helps facilitate the organization's weekly survivor support group. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    Supporting Conversion Therapy Survivors After Chiles v. Salazar: SOGIECE, Clinical Care, and Community Response – An Interview with Samuel Nieves

  8. Jun 22

    Should Conversion Therapy Be Protected Speech? What Chiles v. Salazar Means for Conversion Therapy Bans and the Future of the Profession

    Should Conversion Therapy Be Protected Speech? What Chiles v. Salazar Means for Conversion Therapy Bans and the Future of the Profession In Chiles v. Salazar, the Supreme Court ruled 8 to 1 that a therapist's talk therapy is protected speech, putting state conversion therapy bans at risk. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT break down what the March 31, 2026 decision actually says, what it does not say, and what it means for therapists who work with LGBTQ+ clients. The Court did not call conversion therapy safe, effective, or ethical, and it did not make the practice mandatory. It treated talk therapy as speech rather than regulable conduct, and sent Colorado's ban back to the lower courts for stricter First Amendment review. Curt and Katie walk through the strict scrutiny test at the center of the case, the Kagan and Sotomayor concurrence, and Justice Jackson's dissent, then sit with the harder question: what happens to the profession when the state can no longer set a guardrail on harmful practice before harm has occurred. Released during Pride Month, this is a candid, values-forward conversation about protecting LGBTQ+ clients and practicing affirming, anti-conversion-therapy care out loud. In this episode, we discuss: - What the Chiles v. Salazar ruling does, and does not, change about conversion therapy bans - Why the Court treated talk therapy as protected speech instead of medical treatment - How the strict scrutiny test decided the case - Where the concurrence and the dissent point the profession next - Concrete ways to signal affirming, anti-conversion-therapy care in your practice Full show notes and resources: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

    Should Conversion Therapy Be Protected Speech? What Chiles v. Salazar Means for Conversion Therapy Bans and the Future of the Profession
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The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Where Therapists Live, Breathe, and Practice as Human Beings It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when clinicians must develop a personal brand to market their private practices, and are connecting over social media, engaging in social activism, pushing back against mental health stigma, and facing a whole new style of entrepreneurship. To support you as a whole person, a business owner, and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.

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