Have you ever felt like you should be further along, more certain, or better at something by now? Sometimes the pressure to have it figured out doesn't come from what we actually want—it comes from a story about who we think we're supposed to be. In this conversation, Danielle sits down with therapist, minister, speaker, and founder of Owens Counseling and Consulting, Rev. Hazel Owens, MDiv., LMFT, to talk about what happens when we stop treating expertise like a finish line. Together, they explore perfectionism, curiosity, fear, alignment, authenticity, and the surprising freedom of becoming a beginner again. Hazel shares why she intentionally remains a student of her work, how she decides which opportunities actually belong to her, and why she's learned to turn every anxious "what if?" into an "even if." This is a conversation about owning what you know without pretending you know everything—and learning to recognize when the person you're trying hardest not to disappoint is costing you your relationship with yourself. In This Episode Why becoming more experienced doesn't have to mean becoming more certain—and how staying curious can make us better at what we do. How perfectionism can become an attempt to outrun rejection, abandonment, or the fear that we aren't enough. Why Hazel asks "Who said that?" whenever she hears herself—or a client—say, "I should be…" How to distinguish a genuinely good opportunity from something that is actually aligned with you. Why turning "What if?" into "Even if…" can help you move toward something meaningful without waiting for fear to disappear. Hazel describes her commitment to remaining a student throughout her career and the openness it has created in her work and opportunities. Three Things to Take With You 1. A good thing doesn't have to be your thing. Hazel has learned to ask whether an opportunity is actually aligned with who she is and the mission of her life—not simply whether it looks impressive from the outside. Because when something isn't aligned, she notices herself beginning to perform rather than genuinely show up. And as Hazel puts it: "Just because it's a good thing doesn't mean it's my thing." You added something I love just as much: some of the best things in your life haven't required you to convince yourself that you wanted them. Sometimes all that internal persuading is information. 2. Pay attention to the word "should." When Hazel hears: I should be further along. I should be doing this. I should have figured this out. Her response is: "To who? Who said that?" Because sometimes the standard we're working so hard to meet doesn't actually belong to us. And trying to earn belonging by meeting somebody else's expectations can quietly become a form of self-betrayal. 3. You don't have to eliminate fear before you move. Before Hazel left a career she loved and returned to school, she had plenty of fears and what ifs. Instead of waiting for those fears to disappear, she began answering them: What if I don't have enough money? Even if I don't have enough money… Eventually, she asked herself an even bigger question: "If I removed every single fear—if every fear was gone—would I still do this?" The answer helped her separate what she wanted from what she was afraid of. Any time I find myself or even one of my clients say, 'Well, I should be,' my question is always, 'To who? Who said that?'" — Hazel Owens Pull-Over-the-Car Insight In trying so hard to avoid someone else rejecting or abandoning us, we can end up abandoning ourselves. That connection emerges when you recognize that the perfectionistic part of you may be trying to "outrun or prevent abandonment," and Hazel connects it to the ways we align ourselves with expectations that put us at risk of our own self-betrayal. The Heart of This Conversation Maybe becoming really good at something doesn't mean you finally arrive at a place where there is nothing left to learn. Maybe expertise and curiosity can sit beside each other. You can own your experience. You can say, "I know something about this." And still leave room for another person to teach you something, for an experience to challenge what you thought you understood, for your faith or perspective to deepen or change—or simply for the possibility that there is more here to learn. And perhaps the people who help us most aren't always the people who convince us to trust them. Sometimes they're the people who create enough safety, curiosity, and space that we can finally hear ourselves more clearly. And maybe we leave trusting ourselves a little bit more. A Note From Danielle One of my favorite things about Hazel is that she knows things—and she owns what she knows—without behaving as though knowing something means she's finished learning. She describes herself as "a student of the work that I am becoming an expert in." That feels increasingly rare in a world that rewards certainty, hot takes, expertise, and having an answer ready before the question has finished being asked. Maybe we don't have to choose between confidence and curiosity. Maybe we can become more skilled, more experienced, and more grounded in what we know while still making room to fumble, play, change our minds, and become beginners again. As Hazel says, the last thing she wants is to feel like she has fully arrived. My response? "Yes, because then you're done." Always becoming. About Rev. Hazel Owens, MDiv., LMFT Rev. Hazel Owens is a licensed marriage and family therapist, licensed and ordained minister, speaker, and founder of Owens Counseling and Consulting. Her work includes emotional safety, relationships, faith and mental health, culturally responsive care, and helping people build trust and connection. Hazel also serves as a clinical supervisor for practicum interns at Christian Theological Seminary, the same therapy program where she once trained as a student—a role she says continually gives her opportunities to learn again herself. Connect with Rev. Hazel Owens, MDiv., LMFT Learn more about Hazel's work in therapy, speaking, emotional safety, relationships, faith and mental health: Website: https://www.hazelowens.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_hazelowens/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hazel-owens-mdiv-lmft-04ab2546/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HazelOwens About Don't Cut Your Own Bangs Don't Cut Your Own Bangs is a therapy-informed podcast for high-functioning humans with big feelings who want to understand themselves a little better—without turning self-improvement into another full-time job. Hosted by therapist, speaker, and storyteller Danielle Ireland, conversations blend emotional insight, storytelling, curiosity, and practical shifts designed to help you feel it, understand it, and do something different. Listen + Connect Website: https://danielleireland.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DontCutYourOwnBangs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dontcutyourownbangs The Treasured Journal: https://danielleireland.com/journal Wrestling a Walrus: https://danielleireland.com/wrestling-a-walrus Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0VFZulonTvaa2HIPyJa4Tq Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dont-cut-your-own-bangs/id1427579922 20-Second Spotify / Apple CTA If something in this conversation made you think of someone who is learning, growing, figuring out what they know—or maybe needs a little permission not to have everything figured out yet—send this episode their way. And if Don't Cut Your Own Bangs has become a place that helps you understand yourself a little better, follow the show and leave a rating or review. It helps more high-functioning humans with big feelings find us.
