The Not So Breakfast Show

Sacha and Ish

Listen, laugh and learn as we share our latest thoughts about staying relevant, contemporary leadership and doing life right. Ish Cheyne is the Head of Fitness in New Zealand for global fitness juggernaut Les Mills. Sacha Coburn is the COO of Coffee Culture, a leading group of boutique coffee shops, and the co-founder of The Company You Keep.co.nz.

  1. 6d ago

    The Barcelona comedown - behind the scenes of how we did it

    Say Hello Episode 278 Fresh from Barcelona, Ish and Sacha take us behind the scenes of their recent Les Mills International conference sessions, unpacking how they shaped the presentations into an experience that had people laughing, learning, getting uncomfortable and singing their hearts out. At the centre of it all is a surprisingly simple six-grid structure: an opening, three key points, an interaction and a close. But the real magic happens in how you bring that structure to life. They explore the art of ramping, gradually building audience participation from a simple show of hands to something much bigger. In their case, that meant taking a room of 600 people from quietly watching to enthusiastically supporting some very nervous karaoke volunteers. Along the way, they discuss why understanding your audience matters more than showing off your expertise, how personal stories create connection, and why great presenters need to mix up their delivery styles. They also take a refreshingly honest look at what they'd do differently, including adding more research and evidence, knowing when to ditch a great idea, and remembering the presentation isn't actually about the presenter. The big takeaway? A memorable presentation isn't about being naturally charismatic. It's about preparation, connection, thoughtful design and being brave enough to try something different. Key Learnings1. Big moments are built, not stumbled upon The best presentations aren't a collection of slides with a few activities thrown in. They're deliberately designed experiences. 2. You can't take a cold audience straight to karaoke Want people to participate? You've got to warm them up first. The concept of ramping is about gradually increasing people's involvement, starting with easy, low-risk interactions before asking them to do something that stretches their comfort zone.  3. It's not about you. It's about who's in the room. Great presenters don't just know their content. They understand their audience. Before you walk into a meeting, presentation or pitch, ask yourself: Who's in the room? What matters to them? Why should they care about this, from me, right now?  4. Don't get stuck being the same version of yourself We all have a natural presenting style. Maybe you're the Campfire Storyteller who loves a good yarn, or the Spreadsheet Whisperer who has data to back up absolutely everything. Both have their strengths, but both can become predictable. The real skill is learning to create contrast: mixing stories with evidence, laughter with reflection, and information with interaction.  5. Knowing what to leave out is just as important as knowing what to put in One of the hardest parts of creating a great presentation isn't coming up with ideas. It's letting good ones go. Ish and Sacha scrapped a video, an interaction and an entire storytelling area shortly before their sessions because they weren't going to serve the experience.  Being prepared doesn't mean being rigid. It means knowing your purpose well enough to adapt, edit and make room for what matters most. Join us on Skool.  The 30-Minute Presenter Program Learn how to map out your content, structure your thoughts, and craft messages that truly matter. Check out our 30-Minute Presenter Program today. Click here to learn more

  2. Oct 4

    The Barcelona Primer

    Say Hello Episode 277 This episode is a behind-the-scenes primer for the Les Mills United summit in Barcelona.  Ish and Sacha share how their own Les Mills journeys started in some fairly unlikely places, what they’ll be talking about when they get there, and why mental strength and honest self-review might be two of the most useful muscles we can build right now. Plus a couple of ester eggs, like. Did you know Ish used to be Sacha's PT, and that they never would have been friends at school?  Let's get it!

  3. Sep 27

    High Performance, Bad Behaviour: Where Do You Draw the Line?

    Say Hello Episode 276 What do you do when someone is smashing every target… while making everyone around them quietly consider a career change? This week, Ish and Sacha get into the awkward world of difficult high performers: the rock stars, sales guns and thoroughbreds who deliver brilliant results but don't always play nicely with others. When is "difficult" actually a valuable challenge? When is it genuinely destructive? And at what point do you stop worrying about what if they leave? And start asking, what if they stay?  They explore the important difference between someone who ruffles feathers because they're pushing standards and challenging mediocrity, and someone whose success comes with a trail of damage behind them. Because letting your thoroughbreds run is one thing. Letting them kick everyone else in the head on the way past is another. There's also a brilliant confession from Sacha about being given responsibility for providing feedback at 18 or 19, despite having absolutely no idea how to give feedback,  resulting in roughly "one thing you did well and 95 things you were a bit shit at." Strangely, people weren't grateful. Along the way, they get into courageous conversations, team standards, whether team charters actually change anything.  Plus, the most important preparation for Ish and Sacha's upcoming overseas speaking gig: apparently, sorting out what they're wearing. Key Learnings 1. Difficult isn't necessarily destructive Look at the impact of the behaviour: are they raising the team's game, or raising themselves by pushing everyone else down?  Pasted text 2. Ask "What if they stay?" Leaders can become so worried about losing a star performer that they'll tolerate behaviour they'd never accept from anyone else. 3. Results don't cancel out behaviour If performance reviews only reward the numbers, you're effectively telling people that how they achieve those numbers doesn't matter.  4. Sometimes people genuinely don't know they're difficult Before deciding someone is simply an arsehole, consider whether anyone has actually told them how their behaviour lands. 5. Standards only matter when you use them Team charters, values and behavioural agreements can be useful, but the document itself changes nothing. They become real the first time someone crosses the line, and another team member says, "We're not going to do that around here." That's when words on the wall become the way a team actually works.

  4. Sep 20

    AI Was Supposed to Save Us Time. So Where Did It Go?

    Say Hello Episode 275 Ish and Sacha dig into the slightly uncomfortable reality of AI and productivity: technology keeps promising to save us time, but humans are remarkably talented at immediately filling that time with more stuff. From AI-generated reports nobody really needs, to 15-page emails nobody wants to read, they explore the difference between using AI to make work better and simply using it to create more work. Sacha introduces a useful question, “to what end?” as a way of challenging the endless drive toward greater output. If an AI tool saves you an hour, does that hour automatically need to become another hour of productivity? Or could it become thinking time, recovery, learning, creativity or simply space to do the important stuff better? There’s also a WHOOP watch that mistakes public speaking for tennis, a Dyson battery rescued by ChatGPT, suitcase-packing marital commentary, billionaire ambition, the strange guilt of not looking busy between nine and five, and a warning for anyone currently forwarding enormous AI-generated emails to their colleagues. The big message: AI should help us work differently, not just help us cram more work into the same day. Key Learnings1. Don’t automatically fill the time AI gives back 2. Ask “to what end?” Being able to produce more reports, more analysis or more output doesn’t automatically mean you should.  3. More data isn’t the same as better decisions AI can make information easier to produce. Human judgement is still required to decide whether that information matters. 4. Use AI where it genuinely removes friction Sometimes the best use of AI isn’t an enormous strategic project. It’s taking a photo of the bottom of your dying Dyson battery and asking where you can buy a replacement. 5. Leaders need to teach what “good AI use” looks like Telling people to use AI and then criticising them whenever they use it badly isn’t particularly helpful.  And crucially: if AI makes someone more efficient, don’t automatically reward them with another mountain of work.

  5. Sep 13

    What Ted Lasso Gets Right About Leadership

    Say Hello Episode 274 What do Ted Lasso, Korean skincare, a runaway car and being unexpectedly told you’re “foxy” have in common? More than you’d think, apparently. After Ish narrowly avoids watching his car disappear backwards down his death-trap driveway, he and Sacha get into why Ted Lasso has become such a compelling picture of leadership. Not because Ted has everything sorted, but because he manages to combine optimism, vulnerability and genuine care with standards, honesty and a willingness to have the hard conversations. Turns out kindness works considerably better when it has a backbone. This episode is a love letter to Ted Lasso, but less about football and more about the kind of leadership the character represents. Ish and Sacha unpack why Ted’s combination of kindness, optimism, vulnerability and belief in people feels so refreshing. He sees the person before the performance, takes time to understand what makes people tick and, rather than writing people off when they behave badly, keeps inviting them back towards the best version of themselves. They also explore why compassionate leadership can look different depending on who is doing it, how Ted challenges some traditional ideas of masculinity, and why being vulnerable doesn’t mean turning your team into your therapists. Along the way, there’s an All Blacks example of beautifully simple inclusive leadership, Sacha discovers perhaps the greatest unsolicited compliment ever received by text, and Ish shares what happens when someone keeps going after repeated career knockbacks rather than throwing their toys out of the pram. Key Learnings 1. See the person before the performance 2. Call people in, not just out 3. Kindness needs a backbone 4. Optimism is something you can practise 5. You don't have to be a finished product to lead well

  6. Sep 6

    Do You Really Need to Find Your Why?

    Say Hello Episode 273 Do you know your why? Your purpose? The deep, meaningful reason you leap out of bed every morning ready to change the world? No? Excellent. You may be absolutely fine. This week, Sacha takes aim at Simon Sinek and the whole “find your why” idea or at least the pressure that comes with it. Do we all really have one big purpose we’re supposed to uncover, or is that just another thing to feel behind on?  Ish tries to work out whether purpose is something we discover, something we choose, or just a nice story we tell ourselves after accidentally ending up in the same industry for 30 years. Somehow this leads to Dolly Parton, coal, fake boobs, bad coffee and Ish going full Liam Neeson on a couple talking through a movie. Ish and Sacha unpack why purpose can be useful, where it starts to get a bit wobbly, and why sometimes it’s perfectly okay to just be good at what you do, enjoy parts of it, and build meaning as you go.  Key Learnings 1. You don’t have to “find” your purpose Purpose doesn’t necessarily arrive as one giant revelation about what you were put on Earth to do. It may be something you gradually build by noticing what you're good at, what gives you energy, where you feel most yourself and how those things can be useful to other people. 2. Purpose and talent aren’t the same thing You can be extremely good at something without it being your life's calling. Ish reflects on the idea that the abilities that have helped him succeed in the fitness industry could probably have been applied in plenty of other industries too. 3. A good purpose doesn’t rescue a bad product You can care deeply about making the world's most meaningful cup of coffee, but if the coffee tastes terrible, people probably aren't coming back. Purpose can strengthen a good organisation, but it doesn't replace quality, competence or commercial reality. Sometimes making a genuinely useful product, treating people well and running a sustainable business is meaningful enough. 4. Your company’s purpose doesn’t automatically have to become yours Working somewhere whose values you believe in can absolutely make work more satisfying. But that doesn't mean employees need to absorb the company's mission as their personal reason for existing. 5. Purpose can change Family, work, experiences and major life events can all change what feels meaningful to us. That doesn't mean your old purpose was wrong or your new one is somehow less authentic. The 30-Minute Presenter Program Learn how to map out your content, structure your thoughts, and craft messages that truly matter. Check out our 30-Minute Presenter Program today. Click here to learn more

  7. Aug 30

    Why Smart People Still Make Dumb Decisions

    Say Hello Episode 272 What happens when being “the smart one” becomes part of your identity? Apparently, you get very good at constructing brilliant arguments for ideas that may still be completely terrible. This week, Ish and Sacha get into the uncomfortable gap between intelligence and good judgement. There’s ego, groupthink, sunk costs, Harvard-sized imposter syndrome, a $200 million floating movie set, and the important reminder that sometimes the cleverest thing you can say in a meeting is: “Hang on… are we sure?” They explore what happens when intelligence gets tangled up with ego and identity, and winning the argument becomes more important than making the right call. Sacha admits to occasionally wanting to make the other person’s argument for them properly before rebutting it, which is both impressively efficient and perhaps not the strongest foundation for collaborative decision-making. The conversation moves through book smarts versus broader intelligence, the danger of mistaking confidence and eloquence for correctness, and why genuinely smart people tend to know the limits of what they know. They also look at groupthink: what happens when a room full of capable people all agree, nobody challenges the direction, and everyone confidently marches towards the same cliff. Then they ask one very useful question for projects, strategies and decisions that have taken on a life of their own: If we hadn’t already started this, would we choose to start it today? Key Learnings1. Don’t confuse winning the argument with making the right decision Being articulate, persuasive or quick-thinking can help you defend almost any position. That doesn’t make the position correct. 2. The smartest people stay open to being wrong Real intelligence includes knowing where your knowledge ends. 3. A room full of smart people can still walk off a cliff Agreement isn’t proof that a decision is good. 4. Don’t let someone else’s intelligence silence your own contribution Sacha’s Harvard experience is a great reminder that being surrounded by impressive people can make us start discounting what we bring. 5. Previous investment is not a reason to keep making the same decision The further we get into a project, the easier it becomes to build a convincing story about why we simply have to keep going. The 30-Minute Presenter Program Learn how to map out your content, structure your thoughts, and craft messages that truly matter. Check out our 30-Minute Presenter Program today. Click here to learn more

  8. Aug 23

    Critical Ignoring: The Skill Your Attention Is Begging For

    Say Hello Episode 271Ish arrives with a voice that sounds like it’s been dragged through gravel, but fortunately it’s not illness; it’s karaoke. Ten songs, a bit of Blues Brothers, and a final assault on Sweet Child O’ Mine will apparently do that to a man. Once the vocal cords have been accounted for, we get into something most of us are probably terrible at: critical ignoring. Because between Slack, Teams, email, Instagram, notifications, hot takes, random rabbit holes and apparently an urgent need to learn everything about Mesopotamia, the problem isn’t just knowing how to think. It’s deciding what deserves your thinking in the first place. This episode is all about attention: where it goes, what steals it, and why being able to deliberately ignore things might be one of the most useful skills we can build. They explore the difference between critical thinking and critical ignoring, why businesses can’t be brilliant at everything, and how your diary and internet history may reveal your real priorities more accurately than what you say your priorities are. There’s also a live inspection of Ish and Sacha’s Instagram algorithms, Sacha’s inability to finish researching skincare, the idea that your attention may need its own nightclub bouncer, and a mildly terrifying detour into AI agents that are apparently prepared to throw Susan out of spin class to achieve their goals. Underneath all the chaos is a useful question: what are you allowing into your brain, and is it helping you do the things that actually matter? Key Learnings1. Decide what deserves your attention before you start thinking about it 2. Protect your best working time 3. Your actual priorities leave evidence 4. Make distraction slightly harder 5. Critical ignoring is not the same as avoidance “Critical thinking matters. But first you have to decide what deserves your thinking.” The 30-Minute Presenter Program Learn how to map out your content, structure your thoughts, and craft messages that truly matter. Check out our 30-Minute Presenter Program today. Click here to learn more

See All (291)

About

Listen, laugh and learn as we share our latest thoughts about staying relevant, contemporary leadership and doing life right. Ish Cheyne is the Head of Fitness in New Zealand for global fitness juggernaut Les Mills. Sacha Coburn is the COO of Coffee Culture, a leading group of boutique coffee shops, and the co-founder of The Company You Keep.co.nz.

Information

  • Creator
    Sacha and Ish
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2026
  • Episodes
    291
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 The Not So Breakfast Show
  • Show Website
    The Not So Breakfast Show

You Might Also Like