In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues; Insights For Us All

Janina Fisher, PhD

In Conversation with Janina Fisher features intimate, unscripted dialogues between Dr. Janina Fisher and leading voices in trauma therapy. Each episode explores the nuances of healing—from attachment wounds and somatics to IFS, memory reconsolidation, and anti-oppressive care. Thoughtful, relational, and deeply human, these conversations offer insight and inspiration for clinicians and curious minds alike.

  1. 2d ago

    What Once Kept You Safe May Be Hurting Your Relationships

    What if the arguments we keep having aren't really about what's happening now—but about wounds we've carried for years? In this insightful episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with somatic psychotherapist, relational coach, and founder of Maximé Clarity, Francesca Marguerite Maximé, to explore how trauma shapes our relationships, why old survival patterns keep showing up in present-day conflicts, and how awareness can create new possibilities for healing. Drawing on somatic therapy, Buddhist psychology, Internal Family Systems (IFS), and her Somatic Relational Method, Francesca shares why understanding our trauma isn't always enough to change our behavior, especially when the people closest to us activate our deepest wounds. Together, Janina and Francesca explore how learning to recognize our body's signals, regulate our nervous systems, and pause before reacting can transform the way we relate to ourselves and others. Their conversation challenges the idea that healing requires repeatedly revisiting painful memories or rehashing relationship conflicts. Instead, they emphasize the power of present-moment awareness, compassionate curiosity, and recognizing the patterns beneath recurring arguments. They also discuss how imagining new experiences of safety and support can help loosen the grip of old survival responses. From couples therapy and relational healing to embodied anti-racism and reclaiming personal agency, this conversation offers a hopeful reminder that we cannot change what happened to us, but we can change how we relate to it—and how we show up in our relationships today. Key Takeaways: Your current relationship conflicts may have roots in old traumaAwareness must come before changeInsight alone isn't enough to break old patternsHealing doesn't require reliving the pastThe pattern is the problem, not the partnerRegulation changes communicationNew experiences can help transform old woundsReclaiming agency is central to healingAbout Francesca Maximé Francesca Maximé is a somatic psychotherapist and relational somatic coach based out of New York. She works with adults with trauma as well as with couples, adult families and people in other relationships. She frames her approach using her three-step process, the Somatic Relational Method, which is also the subject is the focus of her upcoming book. Francesca has taught mindfulness and developed and taught Embodied Antiracism courses. She also hosts the ReRooted video podcast, which can be found on Ram Dass’s Be Here Now Network, as well as on her own YouTube channel and Apple Podcasts. Maximé graduated from Harvard and is the 2019 recipient of the International Society of Traumatic Stress Studies Outstanding Student Advocacy & Service Award, as well as the 2019 first prize winner of the Allen Ginsberg Poetry Awards. She has published two poetry memoirs. Prior to her work as a therapist, she spent nearly two decades on-camera as a television news anchor and correspondent for the likes of Bloomberg, NBC, FOX, and PBS NewsHour interviewing celebrities, political leaders and everyday people. Francesca loves the beach, entertaining, and birdwatching, and in her spare time, she can often be found on the tennis court or hanging out with her two cats. Francesca’s Websites: https://maximeclarity.com/ https://www.maximetherapy.com/ ReRooted Podcast Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/francesca-maxim%C3%A9-rerooted/id1441170697 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqKnn08q3nA4oE1R2H_SGuhAT0aJZBTQs

    What Once Kept You Safe May Be Hurting Your Relationships
  2. Oct 21

    Sometimes Being Calm Is the Dangerous Choice

    What if the behaviors we label as “maladaptive” are actually brilliant strategies for survival? And what if the most powerful thing a therapist can offer isn't a technique, but the experience of being genuinely cared for? In this thought-provoking episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with trauma therapist, somatics practitioner, researcher, and activist Mariah Rooney to explore the intersection of trauma, healing, justice, and the transformative power of human connection. Together, Janina and Mariah challenge some of the mental health field's most deeply held assumptions—from the limitations of evidence-based treatments and rigid therapeutic protocols to the ways diagnostic labels can pathologize the very adaptations that helped people survive. Drawing on their clinical experiences, they explore why genuine warmth, attunement, and even delight in a client can be profoundly healing, and why progress isn't always something that can be measured on a checklist. Their conversation also moves beyond the therapy room, examining how systemic injustice, institutional practices, and unsafe environments shape trauma responses. They question what it really means to be regulated when hypervigilance may be necessary for survival, and why therapists must understand the realities clients return to after each session. This episode is a compelling invitation to rethink trauma treatment, not simply as a process of changing behaviors or reducing symptoms, but as an opportunity to honor survival, restore connection, and create conditions for healing both individually and collectively. Key Takeaways: Survival strategies aren't necessarily symptoms of dysfunctionThe therapeutic relationship is more than a vehicle for treatmentEvidence-based doesn't always mean effective for everyoneHealing doesn't always look like measurable progressEven positive change can feel threateningTrauma treatment cannot be separated from social contextHealing must extend beyond the therapy room About Mariah Rooney Mariah Rooney, MSW, LCSW (they/she) is a trauma therapist, educator, and consultant working at the nexus of trauma, healing justice, and transformative change. Mariah has had academic appointments at Winona State University, the University of St. Thomas, and The New School for Social Research, and brings a deep grounding in clinical practice and critical, feminist, and liberatory pedagogies. Their clinical work specializes in complex trauma, dissociation, and identity development across the lifespan, with a focus on 2SLGBTQIA+ and gender-diverse communities.Their research and teaching emphasize body-centered approaches to trauma care, integrating somatic, relational, and justice-oriented frameworks. Mariah is the founder of Trauma Informed Weight Lifting, a program of the Center for Trauma and Embodiment, which expands access to embodied healing through inclusive, community-based strength training. They are the host of MOVD, the podcast and their work is animated by a commitment to collective liberation, dignity-centered care, and the belief that healing is both personal and political. Website: https://mariahrooney.com/ Founder of Trauma Informed Weight Lifting https://www.tiwl.org/ MOVD Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/movdpodcast

    Sometimes Being Calm Is the Dangerous Choice
  3. Oct 7

    What If Telling the Story Isn’t Enough?

    What happens when talking about our pain keeps us circling the same story instead of helping us move through it? In this engaging episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with clinical psychologist and psychodrama expert Dr. Tian Dayton to explore the power of experiential therapy—and why sometimes healing requires more than talking about what happened. Tian introduces some of psychodrama’s most powerful techniques, including role reversal, doubling, and the empty chair, and explains how they can help clients move from talking about a relationship or experience to engaging with it in the present moment. By stepping into another perspective, clients may discover feelings, insights, and possibilities that weren’t accessible through the familiar story alone. Janina and Tian explore the difference between repeatedly retelling painful experiences and revisiting them within a safe, supported therapeutic environment. Rather than remaining trapped in the role we have always occupied, experiential work can interrupt old narratives, bring the body into therapy, and allow emotions such as grief or anger to be felt and move through us. Their conversation also explores the healing potential of groups, co-regulation, grief work, and the simple but powerful experience of encountering another person rather than remaining alone with our internal world. Tian shares how psychodrama and sociometry can create connection through shared experience, allowing group members to become therapeutic resources for one another. Ultimately, Janina and Tian arrive at something larger than any one therapeutic method: healing is not a destination. We don’t finish our healing once and for all, and we don’t need to wait until some future moment to finally be “there.” Growth happens through experience, relationship, practice, and learning to return again and again to the present moment. Key Takeaways: Telling the story isn’t always the same as healing from itPsychodrama helps clients move from talking about an experience to engaging with itRole reversal can open perspectives that talking alone may not reachThe body and emotions need a place in therapyGroups can become powerful sources of connection and co-regulationExperiential work can be especially powerful for grief and unresolved relationshipsHealing isn’t something we finish—it’s an ongoing processSometimes the most powerful therapeutic interventions are also the simplestAbout Tian Dayton Dr. Tian Dayton is a clinical psychologist, internationally recognized expert in psychodrama, trauma, addiction, and Adult Children of Alcoholics, and the author of numerous books on trauma, recovery, relationships, and experiential therapy. A board-certified trainer in psychodrama, Tian has spent decades bringing psychodrama, sociometry, and experiential approaches into trauma and addiction treatment. She taught psychodrama at New York University for eight years and has trained generations of clinicians in methods that engage not only the thinking mind, but the body, emotions, relationships, and lived experience. Her work includes the development of Relational Trauma Repair (RTR), an experiential model integrating psychodrama and sociometry with contemporary understandings of trauma and relational healing. Tian’s Website: https://www.tiandayton.com/ Books by Tian Dayton: Growing up with Addiction: How Adult Children of Addicts Can Heal Family Trauma, C-PTSD, and Codependency https://www.amazon.com/dp/1785046497?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback# Other books can be viewed at author’s website: https://relationaltraumarepair.com/endorsements/ The Living Stage: A Step-by-Step Guide to Psychodrama, Sociometry and Experiential Group TherapySociometrics: Embodied, Experiential Processes for Healing Trauma and AddictionThe ACoA Trauma SyndromeEmotional SobrietyTrauma and AddictionThe Soulful Journey of RecoveryTreating Adult Children of Relational Trauma

    What If Telling the Story Isn’t Enough?
  4. Sep 30

    You Can Want Love and Still Push It Away

    What if the relationships we long for most are also the ones that activate our deepest protective patterns? In this warm and insightful episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with attachment expert and longtime Somatic Experiencing trainer Diane Poole Heller to explore how our earliest relationships shape the way we connect, protect ourselves, and respond to intimacy throughout our lives. Together, they discuss why healing trauma doesn’t automatically heal attachment wounds—and why understanding attachment intellectually is very different from changing the patterns held in the body. Diane explains how early experiences can show up as the impulse to withdraw, cling, distrust, or even push away the very love and connection we desperately want. Most importantly, their conversation offers a hopeful message: secure attachment can be learned. Through awareness, co-regulation, corrective experiences, and practice, we can gradually build a greater capacity for intimacy, repair, trust, and receiving care. Drawing from clinical work as well as her own experience learning to receive love rather than deflect it, Diane brings attachment theory out of the abstract and into the lived, embodied moments where relationships actually happen. As she and Janina explore, healing isn't simply about understanding our patterns—it's about practicing something different until our nervous system begins to believe it too. Attachment patterns aren’t fixed overnight Trauma healing and attachment healing aren’t necessarily the same thing Our relationship reactions often have a history Sometimes we want love but can’t comfortably receive it Attachment work has to involve the body Small doses of connection can create meaningful change Secure attachment affects more than romantic relationships About Diane Poole Heller As a therapist and practitioner in the field of attachment theory and trauma resolution, my driving passion and life’s mission have been dedicated to helping people understand how to create deep and lasting relationships by strengthening secure attachment skills, repairing attachment wounds and supporting resilience and post-traumatic growth. I’ve spent over 30 years discovering, practicing and teaching new tools, approaches and strategies that alleviate suffering and foster healing—from corrective exercises that resolve trauma to complete frameworks and training that “repatterns” insecure attachment adaptations. I’ve helped clients diminish the intensity of their symptoms, shift their behaviors, enhance resilience and often recover completely—and I’ve spent decades guiding and training other therapists in this work. And after working with thousands of clients and therapists worldwide, I am convinced that not only do we all have the potential and capability to heal and build resilience—but that we are in fact innately designed to do so! Diane’s Website: https://traumasolutions.com/ Diane’s Books: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Attachment-Lasting-Intimate-Relationships-ebook/dp/B07FDQW9QW/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.JQLuItjncm1sxFoZr72I-wvaohXniRyrUBUeVaz2kg0.Tr5UjJKANzRmsqqrMTkr5lTovUPJAwpc76PS87k9Dtc&dib_tag=se&qid=1785967976&refinements=p_27%3ADiane+Poole+Heller+Ph.D.&s=books&sr=1-3 HEALING YOUR ATTACHMENT WOUNDS: How To Create Deep And Lasting Intimate Relationships https://www.amazon.com/dp/1622038738?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Free Attachment Quiz on their website Take it multiple times Great resource

    You Can Want Love and Still Push It Away
  5. Sep 23

    You Want Closeness. So Why Does It Scare You?

    What happens when the person we most want to feel safe with is also the person who triggers our deepest wounds? In this insightful episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with pioneering couples therapist Dr. Ellyn Bader to explore why intimate relationships can so easily activate old wounds—and why those same relationships can also become powerful opportunities for growth. Together, they unpack how childhood trauma, fear of intimacy, and unresolved disappointments can keep couples trapped in the same conflicts, even when both partners desperately want connection. Ellyn shares how her Developmental Model of Couples Therapy helps partners move beyond blame, understand what each person brings to the relationship, and learn to stay connected without abandoning themselves. Janina and Ellyn also explore what therapists need to understand about working with couples, why individual therapists should be careful about taking sides, and how collaboration between couples and trauma therapists can open new pathways toward healing. This episode offers a compassionate and nuanced look at relationships not simply as places where our wounds are activated, but as places where growth, differentiation, and healing can become possible. Trauma can make intimacy feel threatening. People may deeply desire closeness while simultaneously becoming fearful or dysregulated when it occurs. Repeated conflicts often point to something deeper. Unresolved trauma, early disappointments, and longstanding coping patterns can keep couples trapped in the same cycles. Disillusionment can become an opportunity for growth. Learning to navigate disappointment and difference can help partners develop greater maturity and intimacy. Healthy relationships require differentiation. Each partner must learn to express their own needs and values without abandoning themselves or expecting the other person to provide perfect safety. Couples therapists need to actively interrupt destructive patterns. Simply allowing partners to reenact their conflicts in therapy rarely creates meaningful change. Collaboration between couples and trauma therapists matters. Working together can help clinicians address both individual trauma and the relational patterns it influences. About Ellyn Bader Dr. Ellyn Bader is a psychotherapist, co-founder of The Couples Institute®, and co-creator of the Developmental Model of Couples Therapy. A pioneer in the field of couples therapy, she has spent more than four decades advancing approaches that help partners grow, change, and stay connected. The Developmental Model, now used by therapists in more than 74 countries, is widely taught in graduate programs and featured in her award-winning textbook, In Quest of the Mythical Mate. She is also the co-author of Tell Me No Lies with her husband and longtime collaborator, Dr. Peter Pearson. Through The Couples Institute®, Ellyn continues to train therapists around the world in the art and practice of effective couples therapy. Upcoming Conference: 2026 Couples Conference - October 8-10, 2026 https://www.amazon.com/portal/customer-reviews/srp/-/R268UI916X5O1Z/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8 Training: Couples Institute Training Program https://www.couplesinstitute.com/developmentalmodeltraining-wl/ Books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001KIVSSY?ccs_id=df3d1f88-c175-4725-9788-72a7706dadbe

    You Want Closeness. So Why Does It Scare You?
  6. Aug 19

    When Good Therapists Cross Boundaries

    In this reflective episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with pioneering trauma clinician, researcher, and author Dr. Christine Courtois to look back on the evolution of trauma treatment—and the work that still lies ahead. From the early days when childhood trauma and dissociation were largely dismissed by the mental health field, Janina and Christine revisit the groundbreaking ideas that transformed psychotherapy, including Courtois's enduring reminder that "remembering is not recovering." Together, they explore why healing requires far more than uncovering memories. Their conversation courageously examines one of the profession's least-discussed topics: sexual boundary violations by therapists. Drawing from painful firsthand experiences as a clinical director, Courtois reflects on how these violations occur, why even skilled clinicians can become vulnerable, and why openness, supervision, and ongoing self-awareness are essential to protecting both therapists and clients. Along the way, Janina and Christine discuss the importance of phase-oriented treatment, the growing integration of neuroscience and somatic therapies into trauma care, the challenges of treating dissociation, and the urgent need for trauma-informed education within graduate training programs. Their dialogue is both a tribute to how far the field has come and a passionate call to continue improving how clinicians understand and respond to complex trauma. Healing is more than remembering Boundaries protect healing Stabilization is not a delay—it is treatment Trauma therapy is relational Graduate programs devote far too little attention to trauma and dissociation Dissociation deserves greater recognition Neuroscience and somatic approaches are reshaping the field The field of trauma has made remarkable progress—but the work continues Christine A. Courtois, PhD, ABPP, a board-certified counseling psychologist, retired from 35 years of clinical practice in Washington, DC, is now a licensed psychologist, author and consultant/trainer on trauma psychology and treatment in Lewes, Delaware. She is known for her work on adult survivors of incest and other developmental trauma in childhood and complex trauma and its treatment.  Dr. Courtois has published numerous chapters and journal articles as well as a dozen books. Sexual Boundary Violations in Psychotherapy co-edited with Drs. Lu Steinberg and Judie Alpert and the revised edition of Treating Complex Traumatic Stress Disorders, co-edited with Dr. Julian Ford were published in 2020. The revised edition of Treatment of Complex Trauma: A Sequenced, Relationship-Based Approach co-authored with Dr. Ford, will be published later this year. In addition to other professional books, she has written a consumer book entitled It’s Not You, It’s What Happened to You. Dr. Christine Courtois Books Healing the Incest Wound: Adult Survivors in Therapy (Norton Professional Books) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393705471?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Sexual Boundary Violations in Psychotherapy: Facing Therapist Indiscretions, Transgressions, and Misconduct by Arlene Lu Steinberg (Editor), Judith L. Alpert (Editor), Christine Courtois (Editor) https://www.amazon.com/dp/143383460X?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Treatment of Complex Trauma: A Sequenced, Relationship-Based Approach by Christine A. Courtois (Author), Julian D. Ford (Author), John Briere (Foreword) https://www.amazon.com/dp/1462506585?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback

    When Good Therapists Cross Boundaries
  7. Aug 12

    All Communication is Communication

    A thoughtful exploration of neurodivergence, creativity, and the transformative power of seeing clients not as problems to solve, but as people whose worlds are worth entering. In this engaging and deeply insightful conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with drama therapist and neurodivergence specialist Liz McDonough to explore what becomes possible when therapists let go of assumptions and learn to follow the client’s lead. Drawing on nearly two decades of experience working with autistic and neurodivergent children, teens, and young adults, Liz shares how play, creativity, special interests, improvisation, and even puppets can become powerful pathways to connection, emotional expression, and healing. Together, Janina and Liz challenge traditional ideas about communication, emotional processing, and therapy itself. They discuss why many neurodivergent clients struggle in conventional talk therapy, how therapists can move beyond agendas and expectations, and why curiosity is often more important than expertise. Through stories of puppet characters, improv groups, video games, and beloved fictional worlds, Liz demonstrates how meaningful therapeutic work happens when clinicians enter the client’s world rather than asking the client to enter theirs. This conversation is a reminder that healing does not always begin with words. Sometimes it begins with a shared interest, a playful moment, or the willingness to see communication in forms we might otherwise overlook. Key Takeaways: Meet clients where they areSpecial interests are therapeutic resourcesCommunication is bigger than wordsPlay creates safetyWhat looks like resistance may be communicationGrowth happens through co-creation, not correctionCuriosity is more valuable than certainty www.lizmft.com Liz McDonough, LMFT, is a therapist, drama therapist, educator, consultant, and speaker specializing in supporting neurodivergent individuals and the professionals who work with them. Drawing on a unique background that bridges a theatrical career in New York with more than two decades as a licensed marriage and family therapist, Liz is known for her creative, strengths-based approach to helping neurodivergent people thrive in school, the workplace, and their communities. A late-diagnosed ADHDer herself, Liz combines lived experience with clinical expertise, bringing warmth, humor, and practical insight to her teaching and consulting. She has presented nationally at conferences including the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium and the AAMFT Systemic Therapy Conference, and works with educators, therapists, and organizations to create more accessible, inclusive, and joyful environments. Liz holds a B.A. in Drama from NYU's Tisch School of the Arts and a Master's degree in Counseling Psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies. She has taught at the graduate level, supervised associate therapists toward licensure, and provides neurodiversity consultation internationally. Liz lives in Durham, North Carolina, where she's often singing, hiking, or dreaming up her next creative idea—sometimes all at once.

    All Communication is Communication

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
8 Ratings

About

In Conversation with Janina Fisher features intimate, unscripted dialogues between Dr. Janina Fisher and leading voices in trauma therapy. Each episode explores the nuances of healing—from attachment wounds and somatics to IFS, memory reconsolidation, and anti-oppressive care. Thoughtful, relational, and deeply human, these conversations offer insight and inspiration for clinicians and curious minds alike.

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