In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues; Insights For Us All

Janina Fisher, PhD
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In Conversation with Janina Fisher features intimate, unscripted dialogues between Dr. Janina Fisher and leading voices in trauma therapy. Each episode explores the nuances of healing—from attachment wounds and somatics to IFS, memory reconsolidation, and anti-oppressive care. Thoughtful, relational, and deeply human, these conversations offer insight and inspiration for clinicians and curious minds alike.

  1. Somatic Wisdom & Complex PTSD: Janina Fisher in Conversation with Arielle Schwartz

    6D AGO

    Somatic Wisdom & Complex PTSD: Janina Fisher in Conversation with Arielle Schwartz

    In this rich, relational conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with somatic psychologist, yoga teacher, and trauma expert Dr. Arielle Schwartz to explore how embodiment can transform the treatment of complex PTSD and dissociation. They trace Arielle’s path from early work with adjudicated youth and community mental health into somatic psychotherapy, EMDR, and private practice—and how Janina’s work on structural dissociation and parts has deeply influenced Arielle’s clinical lens. Together, they question the long-standing emphasis on “event-focused” trauma treatment and instead highlight the power of working with implicit experience, the nervous system, and everyday triggers. Across the conversation, Janina and Arielle explore: How yoga, somatics, and Buddhist-influenced training at Naropa shaped Arielle’s clinical foundations Why classic EMDR protocols can inadvertently harm highly dissociative clients—and how integrating somatic awareness changes everything The shift from processing events to working with the effects of trauma: implicit memory, nervous system patterns, and parts Structural dissociation, protector parts, and the inner conflicts that keep clients stuck (“I want closeness / I’m terrified of closeness”) Why “resource-heavy” work, safety, and widening the window of tolerance can reduce the need for intense memory processing The power of simple language—like “notice”—and why some clients can’t even tolerate the word body Proprioceptive practices (contact, weight, boundaries in space) as safer gateways into embodiment for highly traumatized or dissociative clients “Embedded relational mindfulness” and how a therapist’s own embodied presence can prevent burnout and compassion fatigue This episode is especially relevant for: Therapists working with complex PTSD, dissociation, and highly defended nervous systems EMDR clinicians wanting to work more safely and somatically Somatic, parts-oriented, and body-based practitioners refining how they talk about “the B word” with clients Anyone curious about how neuroplasticity, parts work, and somatic mindfulness intersect in trauma recovery 🎧 Settle in, notice what happens in you as you listen, and join Janina and Arielle in this grounded, embodied dialogue about what truly heals in trauma therapy. https://drarielleschwartz.com/ Dr. Arielle Schwartz, PhD Renowned speaker, author, and esteemed clinical psychologist, Dr. Arielle Schwartz has been widely recognized for her research and clinical advancements in trauma treatment, which have shaped the landscape of trauma recovery and elevated the standard of care all across therapeutic settings. Dr. Schwartz promotes a strength-based, embodied approach to trauma recovery that emphasizes self-driven healing to facilitate post-traumatic growth. Drawing on the principles of EMDR, somatic psychology, mindfulness-based therapies, and relational psychotherapy, she developed Resilience Informed Therapy—an integrative model of care for facilitating recovery from childhood trauma, PTSD, complex-PTSD and Dissociation. Dr. Schwartz has been teaching therapeutic yoga since 2008, and she is the author of Therapeutic Yoga for Trauma Recovery, a widely referenced guide to applied Polyvagal Theory for trauma recovery. She has also authored numerous books covering extensive research and guiding techniques in trauma treatment. https://drarielleschwartz.com/ www.resilienceinformedtherapy.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5LUxnXbReV7I5cEzvb46sQ https://www.facebook.com/drarielleschwartz/ https://www.instagram.com/arielleschwartzboulder/

    39 min
  2. Ventral as an Unopposable Force: Janina Fisher & Deb Dana on Polyvagal Wisdom, Therapist Presence, and Nervous System Truths

    FEB 4

    Ventral as an Unopposable Force: Janina Fisher & Deb Dana on Polyvagal Wisdom, Therapist Presence, and Nervous System Truths

    In this warm, candid, and deeply human conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with her longtime colleague and friend Deb Dana, the clinician who has brought polyvagal theory to therapists around the world. Together, they explore how understanding the nervous system transforms clinical practice, therapeutic presence, and even how we move through our own lives. Spanning more than two decades of shared history—from Sensory Motor Psychotherapy trainings in Portsmouth to the early days of Deb’s work with Stephen Porges—this dialogue weaves personal stories with practical wisdom. Janina and Deb speak the same language: relational safety, parts, states, regulation, and the powerful ripple effect of ventral vagal connection. Core themes in this conversation include: How polyvagal theory “completes the puzzle” for clinicians trained in somatic, parts-based, or talk therapies The therapist’s state as the primary intervention: why being regulated matters more than doing something Ventral vagal as “an unopposable force” and the surprising contagion of safety and connection Parts work inside the nervous system: how sympathetic, dorsal, and ventral shape what parts become available Why clients may fear ventral regulation—especially those with complex trauma or dissociative processes The dangers of rushing: urgency, sympathetic drivenness, and the pressures therapists feel to “make something happen” Working with dorsal states without pulling clients out before their system is ready Trauma-informed communication cues—facial expression, tone, and the subtle signals clients register instantly Real talk about aging, travel, grief, loneliness, and sustaining meaningful work over a long career The gift of humor, warmth, and genuine relational presence in trauma therapy How regulation is a daily living practice, not just a clinical technique This episode feels like sitting with two mentors who let you behind the curtain—not just into what they teach, but how they live it, struggle with it, and return to it again and again. If you’ve ever felt pressure to “do more” in the therapy room, or wondered how to stay grounded while holding clients’ complex states, this conversation will feel like a breath of ventral air. Deb Dana, LCSW, is a clinician, author, speaker, and internationally recognized expert on the clinical application of Polyvagal Theory. She is a founding member of the Polyvagal Institute and an advisor to Unyte. In her work she plays a critical role in advancing the application of Polyvagal-informed approaches in clinical settings. Deb is well known for her ability to translate the complexities of Polyvagal Theory into accessible, client-centered interventions. Through her Rhythm of Regulation® methodology, she has introduced groundbreaking tools and practices that empower professionals and individuals alike to understand their nervous systems and change the way they navigate their daily lives.   Deb’s clinical work published with W.W. Norton includes The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy, Polyvagal Exercises, the Polyvagal Flip Chart, and the Glimmers Journal. Her work with Sounds True for a general audience includes Anchored and The Nervous System Workbook.   Deb can be contacted via her website www.rhythmofregulation.com

    45 min
  3. Energy, Curiosity, and Compassion: Robert Schwarz on Tapping, Meta-Skills, and the Art of Healing

    JAN 28

    Energy, Curiosity, and Compassion: Robert Schwarz on Tapping, Meta-Skills, and the Art of Healing

    Janina Fisher PhD talks with psychologist Robert Schwarz about energy psychology, EFT tapping, and how curiosity and compassion can guide trauma recovery. Together they explore stabilization, implicit memory, and the healing power of presence in therapy. 👉 Learn more at doctor-bob.comhttps://www.doctor-bob.com/https://www.doctor-bob.com/about-meRobert Schwarz, PsyD, DCEP, ACAP-EFT has been a licensed psychologist for 40 years. He was executive director of the Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology from 2008-2024. Bob has organized over 30 conferences on Ericksonian hypnosis, trauma treatment, and energy psychology, ACEP’s Science of energy healing online programs and ACEP’s EFT training program.He has authored 3 books including: Tools for Transforming Trauma and We’re No Fun Anymore: Guiding Couples to a Joy Filled Marriage, as well as numerous articles and papers. He recently released a new online program Transforming Trauma and limiting Beliefs with EFTBob presents workshops and keynotes internationally on EFT and energy psychology and trauma treatment. He is known for his ability to provide specific clinical skills within an integrative model. Bob believes that it is crucial to prioritize joy and creativity in one’s life. He does this personally through music and songwriting and improv.

    36 min
  4. Grounding First: Ruth Lanius on Neuroscience, Dissociation, and the Future of Trauma Care

    JAN 21

    Grounding First: Ruth Lanius on Neuroscience, Dissociation, and the Future of Trauma Care

    Internationally renowned clinician-researcher Ruth Lanius, MD, PhD joins Janina to trace their shared roots at Bessel van der Kolk’s Trauma Center and explore how brain science can—and should—change what we do in the therapy room. They dig into why grounding must precede mindfulness for highly dissociative clients, the promise of Deep Brain Reorienting, adapting SMART for adults, and how real-world samples (not just tightly controlled trials) can finally validate the integrative treatments therapists use every day. They wrap with a clear, brain-based take on psychedelics (hello, default mode network) and a hopeful vision for the next decade of trauma care. In this episode, you’ll hear: The early days at the Trauma Center—and why a non-blaming, grief-literate clinical culture matters Lanius’s pivotal neuroimaging findings that differentiated hyperarousal from dissociation Why many clients “retain nothing” without grounding, grounding, grounding before skills training What Deep Brain Reorienting (DBR) targets (orienting → shock → pain/affect) and who it’s not for Adapting SMART (Sensory Motor Arousal Regulation Treatment) for adults and how sensory pathways invite language and connection The case for real-world evidence so insurers cover integrative, neuroscience-guided care A concise brain-based explanation of how psychedelics may help (disrupting habitual patterns, influencing the default mode network) Ruth Lanius:  https://www.ruthlanius.com/ Finding Solid Ground (program & research) — by Bethany Brand, Ruth Lanius, and colleagues Sensory Pathways to Healing from Trauma: Harnessing the Brain’s Capacity to Heal — Lanius et al. (new book mentioned) Deep Brain Reorienting (DBR) — Frank Corrigan’s model (overview + training/info site)

    36 min
  5. Trauma-Informed Stabilization: Curiosity, Compassion, and the Art of Knowing Nothing

    JAN 14

    Trauma-Informed Stabilization: Curiosity, Compassion, and the Art of Knowing Nothing

    In this engaging and heartfelt conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD is joined by Tiff Kopp and Clayre Sessoms, senior facilitators of Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) in Vancouver. Together, they explore what it really means to meet trauma with curiosity instead of control — and how TIST helps clients build safety, connection, and self-compassion without retraumatization.From their roots in victim services to their current work as art therapists and supervisors, Tiff and Clayre share how TIST weaves together neuroscience, mindfulness, and relational repair. They discuss how the model honors every part of the self — including those born from oppression, fear, or survival — and how humor, play, and the willingness to “know nothing” open the door to genuine healing.With warmth and laughter, this conversation reminds us that stabilization isn’t the opposite of depth — it’s the foundation that allows deeper work, creativity, and love for all our parts to unfold.Key Takeaways:✨ What makes TIST a safe, non-pathologizing approach for complex trauma ✨ How relationship and context restore dignity for marginalized clients ✨ Why curiosity and play are essential to healing and integration ✨ How therapists can unlearn “fixing” and embrace presence instead ✨ The role of humor, creativity, and repetition in building safety ✨ How true healing begins when we can care for even our most difficult partsClayre Sessoms, RP, CCC, ATR-BCPronouns: she/theyClayre Sessoms is a relational and experiential psychotherapist, art therapist, and senior facilitator of Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST). Based in Vancouver on unceded Coast Salish lands, she works at the intersections of parts, power, and belonging, offering care grounded in curiosity, embodied presence, and social justice.As a trans, queer, and disabled human, Clayre brings lived understanding to her collaborations and mentorships, centering safety, dignity, and connection over performing calm or competency, or fixing. She invites you to move from self-management toward self-relationship, and from surviving within oppressive systems to cultivating inner and collective belonging.She is the founder of Clayre Sessoms Psychotherapy, a practice dedicated to relational, creative, and justice-oriented care, and co-host of The Living Practice Podcast, where she and Laura Hoge, RSW explore what it means to live the practices that matter most to each of them.clayresessoms.comThe Living Practice PodcastTiff Kopp, RCC, BCATR (she/they) is a trauma therapist and Certified Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) Facilitator who integrates somatic and art therapy with parts work. With more than fifteen years in the anti-violence and advocacy field, Tiff now focuses on supporting people living with complex trauma and providing consultation for therapists developing somatic and parts-based approaches. A queer clinician, Tiff brings an intersectional, relational lens to her work. Outside of sessions, she finds joy in photography, music, dance and time in natureTrauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST): https://janinafisher.com/tist

    39 min
  6. The Evolution of Trauma Therapy: A Conversation Between Janina Fisher & Bessel van der Kolk

    JAN 7

    The Evolution of Trauma Therapy: A Conversation Between Janina Fisher & Bessel van der Kolk

    In this lively and deeply reflective conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD and Bessel van der Kolk, MD revisit their decades-long friendship and parallel journeys through the emergence of modern trauma therapy. From their early research days in Boston to the global impact of The Body Keeps the Score, they explore how far the field has come—and how much there still is to learn.Together, they trace the shift from “the talking cure” to body-based and parts-oriented approaches, discussing what really heals: mindfulness, curiosity, compassion, and the slow unlearning of shame and self-blame. With humor and candor, they reflect on the limits of diagnosis, the evolution of trauma research, the importance of relational attunement, and the shared privilege of witnessing human resilience.At its heart, this is a rare, intimate dialogue between two pioneers who helped shape trauma therapy as we know it—and who remain lifelong students of its unfolding complexity.Key Takeaways:• How trauma treatment evolved from talk therapy to somatic and parts-based approaches• Why remembering isn’t healing—and what actually supports integration• The tension between research, manualized methods, and relational attunement• Compassion as the antidote to self-hatred and blame• The limits of diagnostic systems and “evidence-based” models• Why curiosity, play, and humility keep the work aliveLinks:Bessel van der Kolk, MD – https://besselvanderkolk.comThe Body Keeps the Score – Book on Penguin Random HouseTrauma Research Foundation (TRF): https://traumaresearchfoundation.org

    50 min
  7. Enduring, Submitting, Surviving: Rui Cang on Trauma, Identity & Healing in Asian Communities

    12/03/2025

    Enduring, Submitting, Surviving: Rui Cang on Trauma, Identity & Healing in Asian Communities

    In this rich and deeply personal episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Dr. Janina Fisher is joined by Rui Cang, LMFT, a Los Angeles–based psychotherapist, TIST facilitator, and Sensory Motor Psychotherapy practitioner whose clinical expertise is grounded in her own lived experience as a Chinese-born immigrant and bicultural therapist. Together, they explore the complex and often unspoken challenges faced by Asian and Asian American clients—from navigating intergenerational trauma and collectivist family systems to reclaiming language for emotion, boundaries, and the self in a culture where those concepts have long been taboo. Through stories from her practice and her own journey, Rui illuminates: The role of shame and compliance in collectivist cultures—and how they can inhibit healing Why the concept of “boundary” may feel foreign or even threatening to many Asian clients How helicopter parenting, fear-based caregiving, and emotional withholding create patterns of anxiety and indecisiveness across generations The cultural value of endurance (zhen)—and how it both protects and harms The profound attachment trauma that can arise even in multi-generational, tightly bonded families How enduring racism, war, and displacement have shaped bodies and nervous systems across Asian diasporas The emotional toll of code-switching, assimilation, and survival-driven identity loss in Western contexts How language itself can limit emotional expression—and how somatic and parts-based therapy helps bridge the gap Janina and Rui reflect on what it means to offer culturally responsive trauma therapy that honors the beauty and pain of collectivist traditions. They discuss the paradox of Asian family systems that are close-knit and supportive—yet often silence individuality, emotional vulnerability, and self-expression. Rui shares how many of her clients, especially first- and second-generation immigrants, are caught between two worlds: Western individualism and Eastern collectivism—and how therapy can help them reclaim a self that belongs to both. Throughout the conversation, Rui’s compassion and insight shine. She speaks candidly about: Growing up in Beijing in the absence of emotional vocabulary Training in psychology in China before such programs truly existed The challenges of doing Mandarin-language therapy with clients whose native culture lacks words like “empathy,” “self-worth,” or “boundary” Her clinical use of parts language (TIST) to help clients honor their loyal parts, submit parts, and protective parts without shame This episode is not only a profound exploration of Asian cultural dynamics in therapy—it’s also a masterclass in attunement, humility, and the courage to question inherited beliefs. Whether you’re a clinician working with Asian clients, an immigrant navigating dual identities, or simply someone interested in how culture shapes our inner world, this conversation offers nuance, validation, and a path toward integration. “Our clients aren’t being resistant,” Rui reminds us. “They’re carrying centuries of survival strategy—and they’re doing the best they can. https://www.thewholisticconnection.com/ Rui is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a deep passion for supporting individuals and families in healing from trauma. She specializes in PTSD, Complex PTSD, dissociative disorders, and attachment-related challenges, and is certified in both Sensorimotor Psychotherapy and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment, and has advanced training in Attachment-Focused EMDR and Relational Life Therapy for couples. Rui’s approach is warm, relational, and holistic—integrating mind, body, and spirit. She believes that healing happens through connection, compassion, and the discovery of inner resilience.

    40 min
  8. Who Decides What Works? Wendy D’Andrea on Research, Relationality, and Rethinking Evidence-Based Trauma Therapy

    11/26/2025

    Who Decides What Works? Wendy D’Andrea on Research, Relationality, and Rethinking Evidence-Based Trauma Therapy

    In this thoughtful and provocative episode, Janina Fisher, PhD, sits down with Wendy D’Andrea, PhD—research psychologist, clinician, and Chief Scientific Officer of the Trauma Research Foundation—to explore a timely and often misunderstood question in the world of psychotherapy: Who gets to define what healing looks like—and who is left out of the conversation? Wendy and Janina unpack the persistent divide between researchers and clinicians, questioning how we define "evidence," who decides what counts as success, and why many trauma survivors don't benefit from the treatments that look most effective on paper. With humor, warmth, and critical insight, they explore: Why clinicians are often discouraged from participating in research—and how to change that How research literacy makes better therapists, not just better scientists The pitfalls of prolonged exposure therapy, especially for clients with complex trauma or multiple traumatic exposures Why “reduction in PTSD symptoms” doesn’t always mean a better life The disconnect between what gets measured in research and what actually matters to clients (like shame, intimacy, or feeling safe enough to hug your child) How cultural mistrust and racial bias shape access to and outcomes in trauma care The limitations of a one-size-fits-all approach to trauma treatment—and the urgent need for relational, nuanced, and individualized care Why creating research that’s relational, co-created, and clinically relevant is the next frontier Wendy shares her experience as a first-generation college student-turned-researcher, navigating a system that values intellectual authority over lived experience—and how that journey shaped her commitment to making research accessible, collaborative, and human. Together, she and Janina imagine a future where: Clinicians are empowered to ask research questions that come from the heart Researchers speak in language that clinicians and clients can understand Evidence-based practice doesn’t mean ignoring the client’s voice, culture, or nervous system Therapeutic approaches are evaluated not just by symptom reduction, but by emotional resonance, relational impact, and lived transformation As Wendy puts it: “Researchers need clinicians to know what’s true in their data—and clinicians need research that respects the complexity of human suffering.” This conversation is a must-listen for therapists, supervisors, and researchers who are ready to move beyond the tired binary of “data vs. intuition”—and instead build a bridge rooted in curiosity, collaboration, and compassion. If you’ve ever wondered why the most “evidence-based” treatments don’t always work—or how we might build a better future for trauma therapy—this episode offers a critical, hopeful starting point. Dr. Wendy D'Andrea is a clinical psychologist with expertise in trauma, psychobiology, and healing. After completing degrees at Oberlin College and the University of Michigan, and postdoctoral specialty training in trauma treatment with Bessel van der Kolk at the Trauma Center, she joined the New School for Social Research and Lang College in 2010. Since joining the New School, she has taught classes on psychopathology, trauma, research methods, and treatment, and her lab has become a vibrant working collective producing over 50 publications with student collaboration. She is also a thought leader in the field of trauma, working as the Chief Science Officer for the Trauma Research Foundation, leading forward the integration of science and practice, and brings a strong interest in understanding processes like embodiment, interpersonal connection, and self-expression in venues such as theater, dance, sport, humanitarian work, and therapy.  https://traumaresearchfoundation.org/about/trf-team/ https://www.dandreatraumalab.com/wendy

    42 min
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In Conversation with Janina Fisher features intimate, unscripted dialogues between Dr. Janina Fisher and leading voices in trauma therapy. Each episode explores the nuances of healing—from attachment wounds and somatics to IFS, memory reconsolidation, and anti-oppressive care. Thoughtful, relational, and deeply human, these conversations offer insight and inspiration for clinicians and curious minds alike.

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