Grey Matters with Leah Mermelstein

GreyMatters
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I started this podcast because I've spent years chasing the same question: what actually makes a practice best for learners? The honest answer I keep arriving at? It depends. But that answer isn't a dodge. It's the beginning of the real conversation. I'm Leah Mermelstein — a literacy consultant, coach and author of several books on the teaching of literacy. I work directly with students, teachers, schools, and districts. And the question I keep returning to isn't just what should teachers do differently in their classrooms. It's what does it actually take to change a system — to shift the conditions inside schools and districts so that real learning becomes possible for every child. That question belongs to everyone in the building. Teachers. Coaches. Consultants. Principals. Superintendents. Curriculum directors. Anyone who has ever sat with the gap between what they know works and what the system actually makes possible. Grey Matters is for those people. Each season I invite guests who are genuinely still inside their own questions — willing to be in the uncertainty with me and to keep going after the recording stops. We don't resolve the hard questions here. We stay in them long enough to understand them better. Teaching and learning don't live at the extremes. They live in the grey. That's why this podcast is called Grey Matters.

  1. 1d ago

    Slow Down to Go Fast: Teaching in the Grey with Zaretta Hammond

    What if the most "orderly" classroom in your building is quietly failing the students you most want to reach? Season 2 opens with Zaretta Hammond — teacher educator, consultant, and author of books that have changed how a generation of educators think about equity, cognition, and instruction. Her newest book, Rebuilding Students' Learning Power, is the ground we stand on today: how do we build the cognitive capacity of every student, especially the ones systems have historically underestimated? There's a phrase in the book I haven't put down since: the pedagogy of compliance — the idea that some of what we've accepted as "exemplar" classroom management might actually be quietly underdeveloping the very students we most want to reach. I brought Zaretta a real, unresolved question of my own: early in my career, I walked into a chaotic classroom, panicked, and tightened into compliance. She didn't just diagnose what went wrong. She gave me a way out that doesn't swing back to chaos: slow down to go fast. What we cover: Pedagogy of compliance vs. pedagogy of possibility, and why systems default to the first even when they say they want the secondWhy "chaos" is usually a sign of a bored brain, not a discipline problemSlow down to go fast: why piloting change with 25–30 teachers beats rolling it out to everyone at onceInstructional leadership vs. management, and why walkthrough checklists can't tell you if learning is happeningOver-scaffolding as a hidden equity trapThe learning pit — why teachers and systems move through discomfort to grow, not just studentsThe "invisible curriculum": why teaching kids how to learn matters as much as what they learnReferenced in this episode: Zaretta Hammond Rebuilding Student's Learning PowerZaretta Hammond, Culturally Responsive Teaching and the BrainThe Learning Pit: James NottinghamLearning That Transfers: Julie Stern, Krista Ferraro, Kayla Duncan and Trevor AleoConnect with Zaretta: Linkedin Facebook  Website Connect with me: www.leahmermelstein.com If something here is sitting with you, I want to hear it. Share it with a colleague and leave a review — it's how more people find this show. Until next time — stay comfortable in the grey.

  2. May 25

    The Grey Space Within: Shame, Agency, and How We Grow as Educators

    Leah and Angela reunite for the season finale to debrief episodes 9–11 and weave together the month's biggest ideas. They reflect on Stella Villalba's concept of kid watching, Angela's solo episode on self-observation, and Leah's episode on seeing others more fully — and find a surprising thread connecting all three: the discomfort and richness of not knowing what you'll find when you slow down and look honestly. What we explore in this episodeKid watching as a gray space Stella's words about kid watching are powerful precisely because they are unpredictable — and how that same messiness applies when we turn observation inward on ourselves. Shame and the reading wars How urgency to close research gaps has sometimes shamed educators who dedicated careers to doing their best — and why calling people out rarely creates the change we're hoping for. Context, capitalism, and guru culture A candid conversation about money, professional pedestals, and why research divorced from human context isn't as useful as it sounds. Teachers have more power than they think Leah shares a formative lesson from professor Sonia Nieto — and both hosts reflect on what it means to gather your own evidence, act without waiting for permission, and trust your classroom as a data source. A season goodbye from Angela Angela shares that she'll be stepping back as co-host, and both Leah and Angela reflect on what this first season has taught them about learning in public. Referenced in this episodeEpisode 9 — Guest: Stella Villalba on kid watchingEpisode 10 — Angela's solo reflection on self-observationEpisode 11 — Leah's episode on seeing others more fullyKelly Cartwright's active view of readingSonia Nieto, educator and authorOlivia Wall, podcast mentor Grey Matters returns in September with Season 2. Until then — stay comfortable being in the gray. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack

  3. May 18

    Stretching Our Thinking — From Idea to Real Dialogue

    In this solo episode, Leah Mermelstein builds on insights from Stella Villalba (Episode 9) and Angela Stockman (Episode 10) to explore a question that feels simple but is profoundly complex: What does it actually look like to learn from people who think differently than we do? Leah dives into the “how” of meaningful dialogue, offering practical, human-centered strategies for educators and leaders alike, including: Suspending judgment as a deliberate, actionable protocolEmbracing humility and courage in professional conversationsMoving from parallel talk to mutual influenceCreating classrooms and workplaces where both teachers and students expect to be changed through dialogue For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Next Up: Episode 12 — Leah and Angela return together to continue exploring the gray spaces of learning and dialogue. Research and References: Dr. Katy Anthes’ Forward Framework: strategies for turning polarization into productive disagreementResearch from More in Common on reducing division and fostering understandingAdditional podcast about this topic by the amazing Olivia WahlLeah's Substack article

  4. May 11

    Watching Ourselves Grow: Building Identity Capital in Circumstances We Didn't Choose

    If you're following us here on Grey Matters, then you're likely a teacher who watches learners closely. You pay attention, and you lean in to listen. You've likely built your whole practice around that quality of attention. But when did you last turn it on yourself? In this episode, Angela reflects on a day of writing and making alongside educators in Dublin, Ohio and what it surfaced about the habitats we come from, the constraints we're living inside of right now, and the identity capital we're building whether we've chosen our circumstances or not. She explores naturalist writing as a tool for self-knowledge, the difference between accepting difficult circumstances and elevating them, and what happened when she brought AI into her graduate classroom this semester in ways that made her a closer reader of her students' work and a more present teacher, too. This one is for those of you who are doing a lot and feeling the weight of it all. The educators who are still curious, still growing, still trying to stay true to something — even inside of conditions you likely wouldn't have chosen. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack

  5. May 4

    Following the Child: Kid Watching, Listening, and the Art of Going Slow

    What if slowing down wasn't a luxury — but the very thing that lets you go deeper, faster? In this episode, Leah and Angela sit down with Stella Villalba, educator, writer, and PhD student whose work lives at the intersection of language, literacy, culture, and equity. Stella traces a through-line from her earliest years teaching in Asunción, Paraguay, where she first encountered the concept of kid watching, through her deep engagement with the Reggio Emilia philosophy of listening — and into a forthcoming book that asks what conferring might look like if we actually followed the child instead of the teaching agenda we carried in with us. Hear stories about what children reveal when we sit in silence long enough to let them answer, explore the tension between mandated scripted curriculum and genuine teacher agency, and consider what it would mean to treat a child's storytelling — across cultures, languages, and modes — as real evidence of what they know and can do. Whether you're a teacher trying to hold your professional convictions inside a scripted curriculum, a coach wondering how listening and observing became skills we forgot to teach, or an educator searching for community with people who think differently and push your thinking — this episode will challenge you to ask whose composing counts, whose story gets followed, and what becomes possible when we stop treating children like empty buckets waiting to be filled. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Show Notes and References: Kidwatching: Documenting Children's Literacy Development by Yetta Goodman and Gretchen Owocki

  6. Apr 20

    Leah and Angela Talk Documentation, Dibels, and Dignifying Learners

    What does it actually mean to dignify learning — for the learner and for the teacher, too? In this episode, Angela and Leah return to questions that stayed with them in the week's following their conversation Melinda in episode 5. They dig into the tensions between the tools we use, the values we share, and the necessary work of dignifying learners and learning by helping them lean into frustration. They reflect on what instruments like DIBELS can and cannot tell us, and explore how curiosity — rather than compliance — might be the antidote to so much that ails us and a key to preventing burnout. This is a conversation about seeing learners fully, sitting with productive complexity, and finding the small, sustainable practices that dignify so much of what can often feel like failure--when it shouldn't. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Show Notes and References: Dibels: https://dibels.uoregon.edu/ Pedagogical Documentation: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O5WsJIF3vY0cSeowxSQSsD8nwF8_OOPYPKtesolBTAk/edit?usp=drive_link

  7. Apr 13

    Documentation as a Dignifying Practice

    What if documentation wasn't about compliance, but instead, an act of dignity? In this episode, Angela reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and follows Leah's thread on dignity into new territory. She considers what we make visible as teachers and learners, what we allow to disappear, and what it would mean to tell more complete stories about learners and teachers. Here, she shares real stories that unfolded in professional learning spaces over the last few weeks, sharing new reflections on pedagogical documentation, multimodal assessment, and the weight of a testing culture that was never designed to hold the complexity of what students actually know and can do. Whether you're an educator buried in data you can't use, trying to build assessment systems that honor who students are, or asking hard questions about whose stories get told — and whose don't — this episode will challenge you to redefine what it means to assess learners and learning. Contact: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Show Notes and References: Hanif AbdurraqibJody Shipka, Toward a Composition Made Whole (University of Pittsburgh Press)RAND Corporation — Teacher Well-Being and Intentions to Leave: Findings from the 2023 State of the American Teacher SurveyCouncil of the Great City Schools — Student Testing in America's Great City Schools: An Inventory and Preliminary Analysis (2015)

  8. Apr 6

    Living with Dignity: Stories, Questions, and Reflection for Educators

    What if keeping student dignity front and center could actually guide your daily decisions in teaching and learning? In this episode, Leah reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and dives deep into how dignity, both for students and teachers, shapes classrooms, mentorship, and leadership. Hear real stories from classrooms, explore phonics instruction, student engagement, and teacher support, and discover how dialogue and collaboration can restore dignity in the gray spaces where learning and growth truly happen. Whether you’re leading a classroom, mentoring teachers, or just curious about navigating the tough questions in education, this episode will spark reflection and practical ideas to honor every learner, and yourself, in the process. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com To learn more about Leah and Angela’s work  https://www.leahmermelstein.com/ Ways to get in touch with Leah Facebook LinkedIn Instagram Substack Ways to get in touch with Angela https://www.angelastockman.com/ stockmanangela@gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/ https://substack.com/@angelastockman https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/ https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman An Article on the difference between speech to print and print to speech approaches https://www.aetonline.org/images/MEMBER_CENTER_Section/Journal_Docs/2023/44-2/Fall2023_03_ASpeech-to-PrintLinguisticPhonicsApproach-Fein.pdf Rod’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/rodjnaquin/p/why-epistemology-matters-in-education?r=4uwjft&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web Leah’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/leahmermelstein/p/when-research-stands-too-tall-a-story?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web

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About

I started this podcast because I've spent years chasing the same question: what actually makes a practice best for learners? The honest answer I keep arriving at? It depends. But that answer isn't a dodge. It's the beginning of the real conversation. I'm Leah Mermelstein — a literacy consultant, coach and author of several books on the teaching of literacy. I work directly with students, teachers, schools, and districts. And the question I keep returning to isn't just what should teachers do differently in their classrooms. It's what does it actually take to change a system — to shift the conditions inside schools and districts so that real learning becomes possible for every child. That question belongs to everyone in the building. Teachers. Coaches. Consultants. Principals. Superintendents. Curriculum directors. Anyone who has ever sat with the gap between what they know works and what the system actually makes possible. Grey Matters is for those people. Each season I invite guests who are genuinely still inside their own questions — willing to be in the uncertainty with me and to keep going after the recording stops. We don't resolve the hard questions here. We stay in them long enough to understand them better. Teaching and learning don't live at the extremes. They live in the grey. That's why this podcast is called Grey Matters.

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