Grey Matters with Leah Mermelstein

GreyMatters

I started this podcast because I've spent years chasing the same question: what actually makes a practice best for learners? The honest answer I keep arriving at? It depends. But that answer isn't a dodge. It's the beginning of the real conversation. I'm Leah Mermelstein — a literacy consultant, coach and author of several books on the teaching of literacy. I work directly with students, teachers, schools, and districts. And the question I keep returning to isn't just what should teachers do differently in their classrooms. It's what does it actually take to change a system — to shift the conditions inside schools and districts so that real learning becomes possible for every child. That question belongs to everyone in the building. Teachers. Coaches. Consultants. Principals. Superintendents. Curriculum directors. Anyone who has ever sat with the gap between what they know works and what the system actually makes possible. Grey Matters is for those people. Each season I invite guests who are genuinely still inside their own questions — willing to be in the uncertainty with me and to keep going after the recording stops. We don't resolve the hard questions here. We stay in them long enough to understand them better. Teaching and learning don't live at the extremes. They live in the grey. That's why this podcast is called Grey Matters.

Episodes

  1. May 25

    The Grey Space Within: Shame, Agency, and How We Grow as Educators

    Leah and Angela reunite for the season finale to debrief episodes 9–11 and weave together the month's biggest ideas. They reflect on Stella Villalba's concept of kid watching, Angela's solo episode on self-observation, and Leah's episode on seeing others more fully — and find a surprising thread connecting all three: the discomfort and richness of not knowing what you'll find when you slow down and look honestly. What we explore in this episodeKid watching as a gray space Stella's words about kid watching are powerful precisely because they are unpredictable — and how that same messiness applies when we turn observation inward on ourselves. Shame and the reading wars How urgency to close research gaps has sometimes shamed educators who dedicated careers to doing their best — and why calling people out rarely creates the change we're hoping for. Context, capitalism, and guru culture A candid conversation about money, professional pedestals, and why research divorced from human context isn't as useful as it sounds. Teachers have more power than they think Leah shares a formative lesson from professor Sonia Nieto — and both hosts reflect on what it means to gather your own evidence, act without waiting for permission, and trust your classroom as a data source. A season goodbye from Angela Angela shares that she'll be stepping back as co-host, and both Leah and Angela reflect on what this first season has taught them about learning in public. Referenced in this episodeEpisode 9 — Guest: Stella Villalba on kid watchingEpisode 10 — Angela's solo reflection on self-observationEpisode 11 — Leah's episode on seeing others more fullyKelly Cartwright's active view of readingSonia Nieto, educator and authorOlivia Wall, podcast mentor Grey Matters returns in September with Season 2. Until then — stay comfortable being in the gray. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack

    33 min
  2. May 4

    Following the Child: Kid Watching, Listening, and the Art of Going Slow

    What if slowing down wasn't a luxury — but the very thing that lets you go deeper, faster? In this episode, Leah and Angela sit down with Stella Villalba, educator, writer, and PhD student whose work lives at the intersection of language, literacy, culture, and equity. Stella traces a through-line from her earliest years teaching in Asunción, Paraguay, where she first encountered the concept of kid watching, through her deep engagement with the Reggio Emilia philosophy of listening — and into a forthcoming book that asks what conferring might look like if we actually followed the child instead of the teaching agenda we carried in with us. Hear stories about what children reveal when we sit in silence long enough to let them answer, explore the tension between mandated scripted curriculum and genuine teacher agency, and consider what it would mean to treat a child's storytelling — across cultures, languages, and modes — as real evidence of what they know and can do. Whether you're a teacher trying to hold your professional convictions inside a scripted curriculum, a coach wondering how listening and observing became skills we forgot to teach, or an educator searching for community with people who think differently and push your thinking — this episode will challenge you to ask whose composing counts, whose story gets followed, and what becomes possible when we stop treating children like empty buckets waiting to be filled. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Show Notes and References: Kidwatching: Documenting Children's Literacy Development by Yetta Goodman and Gretchen Owocki

    30 min
  3. Apr 13

    Documentation as a Dignifying Practice

    What if documentation wasn't about compliance, but instead, an act of dignity? In this episode, Angela reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and follows Leah's thread on dignity into new territory. She considers what we make visible as teachers and learners, what we allow to disappear, and what it would mean to tell more complete stories about learners and teachers. Here, she shares real stories that unfolded in professional learning spaces over the last few weeks, sharing new reflections on pedagogical documentation, multimodal assessment, and the weight of a testing culture that was never designed to hold the complexity of what students actually know and can do. Whether you're an educator buried in data you can't use, trying to build assessment systems that honor who students are, or asking hard questions about whose stories get told — and whose don't — this episode will challenge you to redefine what it means to assess learners and learning. Contact: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack Show Notes and References: Hanif AbdurraqibJody Shipka, Toward a Composition Made Whole (University of Pittsburgh Press)RAND Corporation — Teacher Well-Being and Intentions to Leave: Findings from the 2023 State of the American Teacher SurveyCouncil of the Great City Schools — Student Testing in America's Great City Schools: An Inventory and Preliminary Analysis (2015)

    23 min
  4. Apr 6

    Living with Dignity: Stories, Questions, and Reflection for Educators

    What if keeping student dignity front and center could actually guide your daily decisions in teaching and learning? In this episode, Leah reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and dives deep into how dignity, both for students and teachers, shapes classrooms, mentorship, and leadership. Hear real stories from classrooms, explore phonics instruction, student engagement, and teacher support, and discover how dialogue and collaboration can restore dignity in the gray spaces where learning and growth truly happen. Whether you’re leading a classroom, mentoring teachers, or just curious about navigating the tough questions in education, this episode will spark reflection and practical ideas to honor every learner, and yourself, in the process. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com To learn more about Leah and Angela’s work  https://www.leahmermelstein.com/ Ways to get in touch with Leah Facebook LinkedIn Instagram Substack Ways to get in touch with Angela https://www.angelastockman.com/ stockmanangela@gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/ https://substack.com/@angelastockman https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/ https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman An Article on the difference between speech to print and print to speech approaches https://www.aetonline.org/images/MEMBER_CENTER_Section/Journal_Docs/2023/44-2/Fall2023_03_ASpeech-to-PrintLinguisticPhonicsApproach-Fein.pdf Rod’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/rodjnaquin/p/why-epistemology-matters-in-education?r=4uwjft&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web Leah’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/leahmermelstein/p/when-research-stands-too-tall-a-story?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web

    17 min
  5. Mar 30

    Navigating Paradoxes: Trust, Dignity, and the Gray Spaces of Teaching

    What if the most powerful learning happens not in perfectly planned lessons, but in the spaces between when teachers and students wrestle with paradox, wrestle with uncertainty, and navigate the grey areas of curriculum, instruction, and real classroom life? In this episode of Grey Matters, Leah and Angela are joined by literacy educator Melinda Karshner to explore the paradoxes that live at the heart of teaching and learning. Drawing on Melinda’s experiences as a classroom teacher, literacy coach, and parent of a dyslexic daughter, the conversation unpacks what happens when educators stop seeking a single “right” answer and instead embrace the tensions that shape meaningful instruction. From small group interventions to curricular decisions, mentorship, and leadership, this episode traces how honoring the gray spaces leads to stronger teacher-student relationships, deeper engagement, and more thoughtful instructional choices. Rather than framing debates as “leveled readers”, “decodable texts”  or “authentic texts,” “research or judgement,” or “fidelity or flexibility,” this conversation invites educators to ask a different question: How can we balance evidence, context, and student needs? If you’ve ever felt uncertain about the “best practice,” worried about fidelity versus responsiveness, or inspired by the idea of dignifying both students and teachers, this episode is for you. 🎧 Note: This conversation builds on the themes of our earlier episodes but stands on its own as a deep dive into teaching paradoxes and mentorship. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Resources from Melinda Karshner: https://substack.com/@mrsk04https://www.teach-eduventuring.com/Other connected resources:   The Mentoree Program that Angela spoke about https://thementoree.com/who-we-are/·  Excellent teacher research: https://research.acer.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=research_conference_2003#:~:text=E16%20Expert%20teachers%20enhance%20surface,in%20terms%20of%20surface%20learning

    31 min
  6. Mar 8

    Embracing Paradox: The Power of Coincident Opposites

    In this episode of Grey Matters, Leah reflects on a powerful idea from our first guest, high school ELA teacher Rod Naquin: coincident opposites , the idea that seemingly contradictory ideas can coexist, side by side, in teaching and learning. Drawing on a story Rod shared about Rumi, Leah explores what shifts when we stop flattening complexity into binaries and instead name the tensions that live at the heart of literacy work. From social media debates, to school partnerships, to tutoring sessions and keynote preparation, this episode traces how honoring the grey leads to stronger relationships, clearer planning, and more confident teaching. Rather than choosing sides — phonics or meaning, fast or slow, structure or choice — this conversation invites educators to ask a different question: What problem is each approach trying to solve? If you’ve ever felt exhausted by certainty, uneasy with extremes, or relieved by the words “it depends,” this episode is for you. 🎧 Note: This episode builds directly on our conversation with Rod Naquin in Episode 1. We recommend listening to that one first. Stay with us in the grey. To learn more about Leah’s work: ⁠https://www.leahmermelstein.com/⁠ To learn more about Angela’s work:  ⁠https://www.angelastockman.com/⁠ To comment on this episode: ⁠greymatters26@gmail.com⁠ The Religion of Love Revisited: ⁠https://mail.google.com/mail/u/2/?ogbl#search/naquin.rod%40gmail.com/KtbxLzGLkRrkzqxpXHqrmkqgFVTtFfxVZg?projector=1&messagePartId=0.1⁠

    20 min

About

I started this podcast because I've spent years chasing the same question: what actually makes a practice best for learners? The honest answer I keep arriving at? It depends. But that answer isn't a dodge. It's the beginning of the real conversation. I'm Leah Mermelstein — a literacy consultant, coach and author of several books on the teaching of literacy. I work directly with students, teachers, schools, and districts. And the question I keep returning to isn't just what should teachers do differently in their classrooms. It's what does it actually take to change a system — to shift the conditions inside schools and districts so that real learning becomes possible for every child. That question belongs to everyone in the building. Teachers. Coaches. Consultants. Principals. Superintendents. Curriculum directors. Anyone who has ever sat with the gap between what they know works and what the system actually makes possible. Grey Matters is for those people. Each season I invite guests who are genuinely still inside their own questions — willing to be in the uncertainty with me and to keep going after the recording stops. We don't resolve the hard questions here. We stay in them long enough to understand them better. Teaching and learning don't live at the extremes. They live in the grey. That's why this podcast is called Grey Matters.

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