The Passage

The Passage

The Passage is a literary podcast where authors read a passage from their own work and break down exactly how they wrote it, from the first spark of inspiration and the early drafts to the sentence-level decisions and the moment they knew it was finished. Guests span fiction, nonfiction, essays, and more, from novelists to memoirists to food and travel writers. Your hosts are Jon and Cory, two former book editors who love getting into the weeds of how writing actually gets made.

  1. 1d ago

    Scott Hawkins | Blacktail | Fantasy | Ep. 19

    Scott Hawkins reads from Blacktail, a dark fantasy in which a wolf seeks revenge on humanity for the death of his house dog mate. In this episode, we unpack a passage from the opening chapter, told from the perspective of a lynx, that sets up our introduction to the book’s titular character. Scott chats with Jon and Cory about: Writing from the perspective of animalsThe multiple scrapped projects he wrote between his debut novel, The Library at Mount Char, and BlacktailHis wife as his trusted first readerThe checklist he created and reviews drafts againstThe 80,000 words he spent trying to crack the first chapter of Mount Char that ended up on the cutting room floorThe storyline Mount Char borrows from The Godfather (as well as King Lear)His time at the Taos Toolbox writing workshop with Nancy Kress and Walter Jon Williams Scott's passage, from Blacktail (sorry, the whole passage wouldn't fit so it was edited slightly for length): The snow stopped shortly after dawn. The sky remained gray, though. A faint disk of white sun glowed behind towering clouds. Hate didn’t mind. He liked things gloomy. He hadn’t gone far before he encountered the first of the scent poems that marked the boundary of the wolf lands. He sniffed it idly, sighed. When marking his own lands he would usually keep it simple, something like “Mine. Leave or die.” The damn wolves, though . . . they always had to make a production of everything. It was even worse than their singing. This one said: White-Eye forgotten daughter alone and childless mate of none claims these lands. None other may hunt here. Yup, Hate thought. That’s wolves for you. Why just get to the point if you can whine first? He sniffed closer. This mark was old—last winter or thereabouts. Last he’d heard, White-Eye was still mateless. But she had borne a litter in the spring, a male and three females. That, in no small part, was why Hate had not been sleeping well, why he had been looking up the mountain when the gunshots rang out. White-Eye alone was bad enough. But with a pack behind her . . . a young pack . . . [...] When Hate first came to this patch of forest, he was young, cocky. Not content to take his share of the rabbits and leave well enough alone, he challenged White-Eye for the mountain one fine spring day. White-Eye subjugated him, leaving a shredded right ear that flopped when he walked. For a while he thought he might lose an eye as well, but in the end it healed. Sometimes, on cold nights when he couldn’t sleep he lay and wondered about that day. Why had she not killed him? He didn’t know. At any rate, he had not tried her again. Instead, he comforted himself with the knowledge that White-Eye was the last of her kind around here and, for all he knew, everywhere else. She would not live forever. He could afford to be patient. He had guile, and Guile as well. Eventually the mountain would belong to them, to their kittens. But now . . . it seemed he had miscalculated the degree of White-Eye’s desperation. The rumor was that she had lowered herself to mate with a house dog, some mongrel slave who’d been drawn to the wild lands by the scent of her estrus. As far as he knew, though, no one had ever caught scent of the father. [...] Alone, White-Eye could live well enough off the meat that dwelled on her hill. She had no reason to challenge him. But with four more mouths to feed it was inevitable that she invade Hate’s valley. He remembered her tooth shredding his right ear, the sting of it. Hot murder boiled up from his belly. His claws thrummed.

  2. Sep 11

    Bathsheba Demuth | Floating Coast: An Environmental History of the Bering Strait | History | Ep. 18

    Bathsheba Demuth reads from Floating Coast: An Environmental History of the Bering Strait, billed as the first comprehensive history of Beringia, the Arctic lands and waters that stretch from Russia to Canada. In this episode, we discuss a passage about walruses and the challenges of writing about nontraditional history subjects. Bathsheba talks to Jon and Cory about:  Turning an academic dissertation paper into a trade history bookResearching the history of commercial whaling in the 1840sTaking inspiration from poetsThe luxury of writing as a graduate studentCreative nonfiction writing exercisesWriting while running Bathsheba’s passage, from Floating Coast: Walruses are coastline embodied. They cannot eat without the sea, feeding a hundred or more feet underwater, where they root beds of clams and benthic worms from the mud. But they must breed and birth in the air. So the herds slide and wallow between, riding the edge of the sea ice south in autumn, then north through the Bering Strait in summer, sometimes leaving the ice to flop onto patches of sandy earth. Like whales, they concentrate rich seas in their bodies—over a ton for females, more than two tons for males. Walruses are not as fat as bowheads; the mussels they eat take their cut of the sunlight. But beneath inches of furrowed skin, a third of a walrus’s body weight is blubber. They do labor no person can, transforming submarine muck into useful tissue and hauling it to shore, drawing a line of energy from the sea onto the solid world.

  3. Sep 1

    Joshua Kendall | Trudeau & Doonesbury | Biography | Ep. 17

    Joshua Kendall reads from Trudeau & Doonesbury, his new biography of Garry Trudeau, the famously press-shy Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist. In this episode, we discuss a passage outlining the sexism found in strips Trudeau created during his undergraduate years as well as his evolution into more progressive, feminist politics as he reached the national stage. Josh talks to Jon and Cory about: Mining the two hundred boxes of papers that Trudeau had donated to YaleFinding Trudeau's crude early strips on his first day in the archives, and the doubts it raised about taking on the projectThe value of a good paper trail, and how phones, email, and texting have made biographers' jobs harderHis first biography of a living person, and why dead subjects are easier to write aboutApproaching his biography as if he were writing a nineteenth century novel, with his subject’s story as a bildungsromanHis membership in the Biographers International Organization and why biography is a relational problem before it's a writing problemRobert Caro's Working, and copying Caro's trick of standing in a place at the exact hour his subject would have been there Josh's passage: Trudeau himself would soon be shocked and disgusted by the blatant misogyny of his earliest strips. And within a few years of finishing Yale, he would be open about his own boorishness as an undergraduate. As he told journalist Katie Leishman in 1975, “I was singled out as the number one male chauvinist pig on campus. The woman had documented proof—you know, they'd print something about me and then submit a cartoon I'd drawn as People's Exhibit A. Of course, they were right. If you read those strips now, they'd turn your stomach. I did a lot of soul-searching and reading.” In September 72, Trudeau created the character of Joanie Caucus, who, he added, enabled him to address “women's problems in the context of real women.” But the sexism of Trudeau's earliest strips would eventually be mostly forgotten. In 1989, Emily Bazelon—the scribe for The New York Times Magazine was then a first year student at Yale— worked on a book of essays commemorating the twentieth anniversary of coeducation. “I stuck in a bunch of strips from Doonesbury,” she tells me. “It was a relief and very exciting to see his feminist sensibility,” she adds. When I allude to the earlier crude strips in bull tales about Mike's dating woes, Bazelon admits, “Well, I never knew about those!”

  4. Aug 11

    Dan Fesperman | Pariah | Spy Fiction | Ep. 15

    Bestselling spy novelist Dan Fesperman joins Cory and Jon to discuss Pariah, a satirical thriller about a disgraced comedian recruited by the CIA to spy on an authoritarian Eastern European regime. The passage he reads is a masterclass in building suspense through, let's say... unconventional narrative choices, balancing tension with humor, and crafting dialogue that feels anything but crafted.  We also discuss journalism as preparation for fiction, the beauty of the spy novel, the tradeoffs between creating fictional worlds and deeply researched real ones, and the disciplined writing routine that has produced more than a dozen novels over the past two decades. Dan’s passage, from Pariah:  The Passage: Pavel excused himself into the hallway, where he ducked into the door for the washroom. He was halfway to the urinals when he heard the door open behind him, followed by footsteps. A sidelong glance showed that it was Sarić, who stooped to pick up one of those rubber wedges that janitors use to hold open the door during cleaning. But Sarić jammed it beneath the door to hold it shut. They were locked in. Pavel, who felt as if he didn’t dare move, much less unzip his trousers, watched as Sarić quickly checked all three stalls to make sure they were empty. Then, still without a word, Sarić stepped over to a sink, where he unscrewed the cap of his orange water bottle, pulled out some sort of filter attachment with a plunger, and refilled the bottle. Pavel, who needed badly to pee, fidgeted as he watched this odd ritual. After filling the bottle, Sarić reinserted the filter plunger and pushed it to the bottom, the same way you made coffee with a French press. Sarić screwed the top back on and eyed Pavel carefully. “I suppose you think this is a foolish indulgence. I know that’s what others say.” “No. Not at all.” “They have the same attitude toward a lot of security precautions. ‘Oh, that’s harmless, why bother.’ Of course, they said that about Kelenić as well.” Sarić set the bottle onto the rim of the sink and faced Pavel from ten feet away, like a sheriff in an American western. Pavel crossed his feet and tried to hold it in, his bladder feeling like a water balloon that might burst at any moment. “So, what do you think?” Sarić asked. Pavel cleared his throat. “About what?” “The evening. And our American guest. The way he comported himself.” “I think it went as well as could be expected. The president seemed to enjoy his company.” “Yes, I think that is correct. In that sense, it was a success.” “I’m glad to know that.” “I don’t like him.” “Mr. Knight?” “He’s an actor. They’re paid to fool us.” “He’s really more of a comedian.” “Even worse. Watch. By the end of the week, he’ll have us laughing at ourselves. When people start doing that, they miss things. Important things.” “Yes, well… maybe we could use a few laughs.” “Fine, then. Laugh your way through the entire week. But don’t lose your focus, because you have a role to play, a job to do. For me.” Sarić closed the distance between them and clamped a hand on Pavel’s shoulder, the grip uncomfortably firm. Pavel had to shift his feet to hold his balance, even as he continued to concentrate on not peeing in his pants....

  5. Aug 1

    Oana Aristide | Astronaut! | Fiction | Ep. 14

    Oana Aristide reads the opening pages of Astronaut!, her recently-released novel set in late-80s communist Romania. Astronaut! follows two main characters: an eight-year-old girl caught up in a rigged school contest and a detective ordered to pin a string of murders on a man-eating bear. Oana talks to Jon and Cory about: Why the opening was the last chapter she wrote, and also the most difficultDeliberating over the pros and cons of opening the book with humorThe challenges of writing from the perspective of a childThe trickiest aspects of writing in a fourth languageThinking and drafting in scenes rather than pages or word countsHer love of Chekov’s short storiesGetting feedback from her two long-running writing groups  Oana's passage: Sighișoara, March Lia is being walked home by Comrade Blaga, the shopkeeper, who is holding her hand. A couple of times she tries to get out of this embarrassing situation, makes her hand go limp, or folds it together in the shape of a small bird wriggling out of a nest. But Comrade Blaga does not let small birds go. They are walking by the road along the river embankment. It’s Mother’s birthday and also Friday afternoon, and the buses are bringing people home from the factories. From the corner of her eye Lia catches a glimpse of one, so full it’s almost dragging its belly along the tarmac. It’s an accordion bus – it has that creaky, bendy rubber bit in the middle – and there are people clinging to the steps and to its three wide-open doors, a bit like bees swarming to a hive. Everyone on the passing buses can see her and Comrade Blaga walking home hand in hand. The river is far below. Murky as always, barely moving along. Mother explained that it used to be higher up and wild, liked to burst its banks whenever there was heavy rain, flooding houses, shops and roads, and so the people made it live in this river-gutter instead. If the shopkeeper were not still holding her hand, Lia would be leaning over the railing, throwing pebbles into the trapped river. It’s Mother’s birthday today and she has no present. Lia couldn’t believe her luck when she first spotted the vase with a big yellow sunflower painted on it, couldn’t believe that it was something people could buy. And so today, Lia had pointed at it in the homeware shop, and Comrade Blaga took the banknote from her. He looked her up and down – it was then that the bad-belly feeling started – then he locked the door of his shop. There was no one else inside. And now – no money, no vase, no hand.

  6. Jul 19

    M Lin | "The Memory Museum" | Fiction | Ep. 13

    Author M Lin joins us to discuss her fantastic debut collection, The Memory Museum, a series of stories that move between contemporary China and imagined futures to explore memory, family, censorship, loss, and—perhaps unexpectedly—joy. The passage M reads for us, from the collection’s title story, comes from a scene she added only after nearly a year of revisions—a late breakthrough that ended up recontextualizing the emotional core of the story itself. It's a fascinating conversation about the unreliability of memory, and the satisfaction of “uncovering” elements of a story you didn’t realize were there.  M also talks to Cory and Jon about why writing is sometimes less an act of creation than one of patient discovery, how the process of writing itself gradually narrows a blank page’s infinite possibilities, the challenge of writing a hopeful story using the conventions of dystopian fiction, the influence of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony and classical music, why she abandoned the rigid outlining habits she’d developed as a screenwriter, and how learning to trust her instinct became one of the most important parts of her creative process. M’s passage, from The Memory Museum: It took me years to uncover what I owed Lu Tian—my own memory of the afternoon when my father was first taken away. As the first step, I paused my visits to the library, shelving Laolao’s reconstruction into the subconscious. Several years later, I requested its audial and olfactory profiles and experienced them strictly on their own. Initially only to the point I used to stop at, then all the way to the end, to the huge fight between my mother and Laolao, which started with Laolao telling my mother to give up what she and my father were doing and ended in my mother packing up and leaving. Once I synced the profiles again, my brain cells went giddy, as if they were cooking up a big surprise but did not know the recipe. The fluster lasted a long time, straining my excitement into frustration. Often I thought about admitting defeat, but Lu Tian always managed to send me back to the memory tank, hopeful again. One day, I left the two profiles playing on repeat and resigned myself to keeping my eyes closed. Very soon, time lost its grip on me. I couldn’t count how many times they ended and started over again. At some point, toward the end of a cycle, the audio glitched, but I didn’t open my eyes. The profiles continued playing but the sound became faint, as if everything were happening far away. It was then that an unfamiliar image flickered. In Laolao’s memory, after my mother left, we sat together in the living room, mindlessly watching a children’s patriotic education program on TV. Now that the show’s voiceover sounded more remote, I realized that my memory of those few minutes differed: I had not been with Laolao but by myself in the adjacent room, looking out from five floors above, the TV’s sound reaching me at a subdued volume. The unfamiliar image was familiar after all: It was of my mother in the courtyard, standing below our window with her suitcase. She bent her arms overhead, making the shape of a heart, and waved goodbye to me. In my memory, I could not hear her, but somehow she convinced me to move away from the window first, to return to Laolao in the living room, to resume the life of a child, with the show on TV, dinner on the table, and family by her side, so that, I understood now, her daughter did not have to imprint on her mind the image of her mother walking away, leaving her behind.

  7. Jul 5

    Sonya Walger | Wifehouse | Fiction | Ep. 12

    Award-winning author and actor Sonya Walger (Lost, For All Mankind) joins us to discuss her latest novel, Wifehouse—the story of a woman who has always defined herself as a wife and mother, and who, in trying to put her own happiness first, pursues an affair with a much younger French tutor. As Sonya puts it, it's ultimately a novel about "a mother who leaves,” and the questions such a story raises: Why would a woman make that decision? And what happens after? The passage Sonya reads centers on a real-life story that inspired one of the book's most pivotal scenes—and one of the hardest for her to get right. It’s a great conversation about concision, pacing, metaphor, and how an ordinary podcast anecdote can find it’s way to unlocking the emotional heart of a novel. Sonya also talks to Cory and Jon about her process of “writing into a question,” how the experience of interrogating a script as an actor lends itself to novel-writing, why more actors should write novels, the art of turning life’s observations into fiction, and what makes airplanes great places to get some work done (hint: it’s the fact that you’re trapped). Sonya’s passage, from Wifehouse: She gropes for her phone in the dark, finds a podcast to drown out her thoughts. The host of a news review show tells a story about a group of tourists on a guided tour bus in Iceland who got off at a rest stop to stretch their legs and take in the scenery. One female traveler decided to change her clothes before getting back on the bus. When it was time to leave, the passengers boarded the bus, and one of them alerted the driver that they were missing a passenger—a woman in black who had been sitting by the window. The driver agreed to wait, and they all sat on the bus, patiently awaiting this woman’s return. Eventually, when she did not appear, they decided to get out and search for her. The female traveler joined in the search. Local police were summoned, the fire department deployed, all beginning an increasingly frantic search for a missing woman in a black jacket. It was many, many hours before the female traveler realized that she was, in fact, the person for whom they were searching. She informed the authorities, and the search was called off. The host laughs as he tells the story. Annie is wide awake now. She pictures this woman, trudging through the tundra, searching for the missing tourist. She wonders how long it took her to realize her mistake. She wonders how long it took her to admit to it. Did she hesitate, Annie wonders, did she for one wild moment wonder what would happen if she never owned her mistake but allowed that other self to vanish into that treeless horizon? Did she, for a moment, hover on the threshold of becoming someone new, someone naked, reborn, free? Annie stares at the darkness. She, too, is walking in the wrong direction, knowing full well that she is the one who is missing.

Ratings & Reviews

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About

The Passage is a literary podcast where authors read a passage from their own work and break down exactly how they wrote it, from the first spark of inspiration and the early drafts to the sentence-level decisions and the moment they knew it was finished. Guests span fiction, nonfiction, essays, and more, from novelists to memoirists to food and travel writers. Your hosts are Jon and Cory, two former book editors who love getting into the weeds of how writing actually gets made.

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