Conversing with Mark Labberton

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Conversing with Mark Labberton Podcast

Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

  1. 8 HR. AGO

    Perfectionism, with Kenneth Wang

    Is perfection possible? And if so, is it worth the cost to your mental and spiritual health? The quest for perfection haunts many people: students, athletes, employees, parents—and the children of those parents! While this quest is often framed as the pursuit of excellence, virtue, and success, perfectionism often results in various maladaptive behaviours—such as procrastination, people-pleasing, relational stress, and mental illnesses, including anxiety and depression disorders. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Dr. Kenneth Wang, Professor of Psychology at Fuller School of Psychology, to talk about the psychological and spiritual dynamics of perfectionism. Together, they explore the connections between perfectionism and a range of personal and mental health issues, such as depression, achievement, religiosity, racial identity, and self-esteem. They reflect on the cultural obsession with perfection; the severe psychological and social burdens of trying to be perfect; the toxicity of comparison to others; the meaning of being “good enough”; and the spiritual impact of encouraging perfection in education, career, relationships, and personal life. About Kenneth Wang Kenneth Wang is Professor of Psychology at Fuller School of Psychology. He’s an experienced therapist, and has conducted extensive research that spans the psychology of religion, to mindful meditation, to coping with trauma, mental health and race, moral character and virtue formation, diversity, and cross-cultural adjustment. His expertise is in the psychological study of perfectionism in familial, educational, religious contexts—looking at the phenomenon across a variety of cultures. Visit Dr. Kenneth Wang’s website to take an online assessment for perfectionism and consider guidance and coaching from Dr. Wang. Show Notes Societal perfectionism and the lure of the perfect through technology Comparing perfectionism in Asia vs America Comparing ourselves to others “Editing for the perfect shot” “There’s no time to relax or rest.” “One thing that's underlying challenges of perfectionism is that we compare ourselves with others and we feel like we're not good enough.” Rank-ordered report cards in Taiwan The psychological weight of pressure to perform Competition and perfectionism The elusive search for contentment The difference between performance and perfectionism Perfectionism’s two core dimensions: (1) striving to meet very high standards of excellence / (2) discrepancy or evaluative concerns—being truly bothered by any amount of imperfections “Extreme perfectionists can’t tolerate any imperfection.” Shame, rumination, and anxiety Kenneth guides Mark through a live perfectionism evaluation “Is your best good enough?” “Adaptive perfectionism” “I did the best I could” vs “I’m sure I always could have done better.” Cross-cultural dimensions of perfectionism: wanting to fit in, the exhaustion of trying to get things right, and language apprehensiveness Timidity and fear to make a mistake Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder and perfectionism The view of oneself: performance achievement mentality, seeking validation, unstable self-worth Perfectionists magnify imperfections Inner critic Kenneth Wang’s recovery as a perfectionism Can perfectionists forgive themselves for displeasing others? How to deal with the emotions that come along with perfectionist catastrophizing Training mental muscles to become more resilient to negative emotions How to “sit with emotions” Japanese Kintsugi practices and the visibility of a history of brokenness: gold paint that highlights brokenness and imperfect repair Theological reflections on perfection: “Only God is perfect.” How does Christianity speak into perfectionism with grace and truth? “I am the vine, you are the branches.” Shame and giving up on our illusions of perfection Coping with inadequacy Allowing God to lead us into the broad plac

    50 min
  2. Audacity and Humility / A Conversing Short by Mark Labberton

    SEP 3

    Audacity and Humility / A Conversing Short by Mark Labberton

    The news media offers a steady drip of audacity, nerve, and offence—something for each end of the political spectrum and every corner of the public square. But when we integrate audacity with a humble confidence, it can lead to powerful acts of love and justice. The gospel makes an audacious claim about God’s grace. It makes an audacious demand that we love our neighbours in humility. And that combination of audacity and humility keeps us seeking to engage in real conversations about ultimate things—despite our differences, despite resentments, despite all the reasons to give up on building something together. In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the meaning of audacity, humility, and courage when the church engages in public life. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes What is audacity? Virtuous audacity, e.g., The Audacity of Hope (like Barack Obama) Injurious audacity, e.g., preposterous, foolish, offensive, distorting, railroading, steamrolling, shutting down, closing off But an additional form of audacity “has led to the humblest and most sacrificial forms of human service and love and compassion and mercy and justice.” Imagine a crowd of Berkeley, CA, protesters lined up before you, demanding: “How dare you?” Audacity and courage “It actually helped galvanize in my own voice—in my heart, in my lungs, in my mind—a sense of what I hope was humble confidence in proclaiming a gospel that I did and do believe is true.” “How do we actually engage in real conversation about ultimate things?” Adopting a stance of “we are all in this together” “How dare we believe and speak in God’s name?” “Indeed how dare I, and then also how dare I not if this is actually true?!” Integrating humility, confidence, courage Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    7 min
  3. Negotiating Disagreement, with John Inazu

    AUG 27

    Negotiating Disagreement, with John Inazu

    How should we approach disagreements when our deepest convictions and commitments are challenged or questioned? A healthy society is built around the ability to navigate these kinds of disagreements with responsibility and respect, but in our increasingly polarized society, it’s becoming harder and harder to cultivate the habits, skills, and virtues that can keep us united amid our vehement disagreements. In this episode Mark welcomes legal scholar and law professor John Inazu to discuss how to approach disagreement with wisdom, care, and a commitment to the well-being of the other. John is the Sally D. Danforth Distinguished Professor of Law and Religion at Washington University in St. Louis. He speaks and writes frequently about pluralism, assembly, free speech, and religious freedom. His latest book is Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect. Together Mark and John discuss the role of fear management when approaching difficult conversations; how to appreciate the complexity and diversity of perspectives in others; the role of empathy in communication; how to learn to disagree constructively in different life contexts from work to home to politics; how authority, power dynamics, and social roles factor in productive disagreements; the light and dark sides of civility; and how to navigate and negotiate our disagreements with compassion and love. About John Inazu John Inazu is the Sally D. Danforth Distinguished Professor of Law and Religion at Washington University in St. Louis. He teaches criminal law, law and religion, and various First Amendment courses. He writes and speaks frequently about pluralism, assembly, free speech, religious freedom, and other issues. John has written three books—including Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect (Zondervan, 2024) and Liberty’s Refuge: The Forgotten Freedom of Assembly (Yale University Press, 2012)—and has published opinion pieces in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, USA Today, Newsweek, and CNN. He is also the founder of the Carver Project and the Legal Vocation Fellowship and is a senior fellow with Interfaith America. Show Notes Get your copy of Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect (https://www.jinazu.com/learning-to-disagree) John Inazu’s background as a legal scholar and expert on first amendment rights, including the freedom to assemble peaceably, or “the right to peaceful assembly” How to learn from lawyers about how to disagree How does fear factor into communicating through disagreement? What neuroscience has taught as about fear “I can understand why you feel that…” Well-practiced habits Be prepared to engage differently Learning how to practice communication outside of a toxic social media or online context Empathy and the complexity of others’ views Canadian psychological research on empathy Avoiding abstraction in order to cultivate empathy David Brooks’s book, How to Know a Person How to understand fundamental versus surface-level differences Heated political issues and the social roles we inhabit Power dynamics, authority, and responsibility Power dynamics in the classroom How to approach disagreement in political protests on college campuses, e.g., Columbia University “Part of that responsibility is recognizing that people are hurting in very deep ways. … We’re not talking about abstractions or debating some historical event, we’re talking about real felt emotions.” “I'm aware that the capacity for interpersonal interaction has fallen off and it becomes more and more a school, or an environment, or a culture in which disagreement is not allowed.” Civility as a virtue or a vice? Purely cognitive rationality vs complex, emotional passions Fannie Lou Hamer and playing by a different set of social norms and rules Polarization and

    1h 0m
  4. Living with Terminal Cancer, with Amy Low

    AUG 20

    Living with Terminal Cancer, with Amy Low

    “The mystery has great meaning.”   Joy and sorrow don’t have to be dissonant opposites, author Amy Low suggests. There can be harmony in the space between triumph and tragedy. In her recent memoir, *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room,* she recounts her battle with Stage IV metastatic colon cancer following the end of her marriage.   Her gracious, generous wisdom is beautifully expressed on her book’s back cover: “Through the swirl of prolonged trauma and unbearable grief, a vantage point emerged—a window that showed her the way to relish life and be kinder to herself and others while living through the inevitable loss and heartbreak that crosses everyone’s paths.”   In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Amy for a conversation about the lessons she’s learned from living with cancer, including: how to come to terms with our own deaths; dealing with divorce and a traumatic end of a relationship; how to walk the path of forgiveness and humility; the immense complexity and beauty of humanity; how to explore the meaning of mystery without fear; the role of friendship and community in dealing with cancer; and the hope of imagining heaven.   About Amy Low Amy Low, author of *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room,* has been a storyteller all her life. She grew up in and continues to live life through parables and metaphors. She sees her life as an invitation to discovering the new every day and even records some of these discoveries in her Substack, Postcards from the Mountain. As the managing director for fellowships and non-profit journalism at the Emerson Collective, she directs efforts to empower individuals and newsrooms to strengthen our shared conversation in the public square. Most important, Amy is mom to Connor and Lucy. Her proudest achievement is raising a son and daughter who are unafraid, grateful, and curious, whether in class, at home, on stage, or especially in the band. Get your copy of *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room.*   Follow Amy’s story through her Substack, Postcards from the Mountain.   Being in the last room of one’s life   The profundity and sacredness of discussing one’s “last room”—”the most human place of all”   Bravery, imagination, and generosity   Amy Low’s cancer diagnosis of Stage IV metastatic colon cancer at 48 years old   Discovering metastases   Living in the last room: an unusual place to inhabit in mid-life   There are different ways to live in the last room.   St. Paul’s “last room” as described in the Letter to the Philippians   Lament and levity   Grief and being with people in their last rooms   Being fully alive in the midst of facing one’s death   “I can say with confidence for me that divorce was far harder than cancer. When I had to grapple with the gravity of my disease and the diagnosis and what I was going to face … I had come through a space of the woods that I can say was far more ominous, far harder, far more heartbreaking.”   Divorce   Forgiveness and receiving care from her ex-husband   How to create a new story in the wake of tragedy and trauma   Forgiveness as “releasing people from the negative consequences of their behavior”   “Giving yourself permission to be truly loved, and to be truly released from shame.”   Fear   Amy’s honest, artful, candid expression of her story   “Metaphors are places that hold ambiguity.”   Finding peace with ambiguity and mystery   Joy and purpose   “The worst thing anyone ever said to me was, you know, this whole thing is like so random. … And I thought, ‘No. No. The minute you call this random, the minute this doesn’t have any meaning.”   “The mystery has great meaning.”   Grappling with the tension of purpose and pain   How specific friends stood by Amy in approaching the experience of her cancer diagnosis   “Don’t just

    1h 1m
  5. Faith and Politics, with Ross Douthat

    AUG 13

    Faith and Politics, with Ross Douthat

    “A certain degree of faith in Providence and a certain degree of confidence in America … May that combination not be overwhelmed by some disaster.” (New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, offering a blessing for election season) Contemporary political debate and commentary operates from deeply moral sources. People tend to vote their conscience. Our values and ideals, our sense of right and wrong, and our beliefs about what contributes or detracts from the common good often inform our politics. And across the political spectrum, Americans of all stripes exercise their citizenship and public engagement through a religious faith that grounds it all. So, what better space to explore this conjunction of faith, morality, and political life than The New York Times Opinion section? Today on the show, Ross Douthat joins Mark Labberton to discuss how his faith and theological commitments ground his moral and political perspectives. Douthat joined The New York Times as an Opinion columnist in 2009, and regularly appears on the weekly Opinion podcast, “Matter of Opinion.” He’s also a film critic for National Review and was previously senior editor at The Atlantic. In this episode, they discuss the spiritual and political background of Douthat’s youth and how Roman Catholic Christianity grounded his religious and political views; the challenges for how the Catholic Church and its moral teachings can adapt to contemporary culture; how faith and morality can speak to our dynamic political moment during the 2024 election season; and finally Ross’s hope and faith in divine providence met with confidence in America’s resilience and capacity for good. About Ross Douthat Ross Douthat joined The New York Times as an Opinion columnist in 2009, and regularly appears on the weekly Opinion podcast, “Matter of Opinion.” He’s also a film critic for National Review. Previously, he was a senior editor at The Atlantic. He is the author of several books, including The Deep Places: A Memoir of Illness and Discovery (2021), The Decadent Society (2020), To Change the Church: Pope Francis and the Future of Catholicism (2018), Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics (2012); Privilege: Harvard and the Education of the Ruling Class (2005), and, with Reihan Salam, Grand New Party: How Republicans Can Win the Working Class and Save the American Dream (2008). His newest book, Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious, will be published in early 2025. Show Notes   Ross Douthat’s spiritual background as Episcopalian, Pentecostal-Evangelical, and eventually Roman Catholic   Our “spiritually haunted environment”   How Catholicism has changed from Pope John Paul II to Pope Francis   Adapting moral teachings to contemporary challenges   “Many, many of the problems in our culture and the reasons for people's unhappiness are related to issues of sex and relationships.”   “Jesus says incredibly stringent and strenuous things in the Gospels about sex.”   “I think if the church stops having some sort of countercultural message on those issues, then it won't actually be speaking to the big challenges and derangements of our time.”   “All of the developed world is heading over this demographic cliff…”   People aren’t getting married anymore. They aren’t forming relationships anymore.”   Pope Francis, pastoral sensitivity, and making moral concessions to contemporary culture   Pope Francis squelching the Latin mass   Commenting on the dynamics and craziness of our political moment   “Over the course of my career, I have tried to spend a lot of time with the idea that Catholicism in particular, and I think Christianity in general, should stand a little bit outside of partisan categories.”   How the Republican Party can address the needs of the working class   Ross Douthat’s views during the Trump Era   Providence and appealing to God’s control   "M

    47 min
  6. Preaching the Gospel Through Glass Walls / Mark Labberton

    AUG 6

    Preaching the Gospel Through Glass Walls / Mark Labberton

    Sacred spaces are not secret spaces. The church enacts a gospel reality that is inherently universal and transparent in the world. And what better metaphor than building a church sanctuary made of glass to communicate the invitation of the gospel to the world? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the implications of this architectural decision. He also considers the opportunities for community conversation; the invitation to communion, dialogue, and unity; and a fearless, gospel-centered transparency between the church and the world.   About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”   About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.   Show Notes   Preaching in a glass-walled sanctuary at First Presbyterian Berkeley, CA   “It’s one cross, in the world and for the church… but it’s for everyone.”   The “live theater” of preaching in a glass-walled sanctuary   We live in a church and world of both stillness and movement—which is embodied in Jesus’s ministry   “I wanted to feel like what I was doing in the sanctuary would land as much with realistic speech and tone and assumption in the streets of Berkeley as it would land inside the sanctuary.”   “It was a good way to hold my feet to the fire. Would I say this if I was standing exposed as it were on the street outside? Or would I only say this inside the closed walls of, yes, a clear glass wall church? So it became a metaphor—a reality—a vivid visual play that was part of every Sunday.”   Utter transparency of glass over stone walls   In a sacred space there is a transparency.   “The same kind of tyranny against faith exists inside us, but also around us. And now we're together going to share in the celebration of the Lord's table. ‘Come all you who are hungry. Eat and drink of this body and this bread.’ We're doing that in public view.   How do we live the claims of the gospel in a way that’s humble—not arrogant, not presumptuous, not full of pride, not insider-outsider, not us-versus-them… we are the us.”   “The gospel is for all of us.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    8 min
  7. Performance-Based Identity, with Ben Houltberg

    JUL 30

    Performance-Based Identity, with Ben Houltberg

    “When we pursue excellence it doesn’t have to come at the cost of our emotional and relational health.” (Ben Houltberg) How do we form an identity and sense of self? Do we define ourselves based on the fragile glass shelter of what we achieve or how well we perform? If so, how does that affect our sense of meaning and purpose in life? With the 2024 Paris Olympics underway, it’s easy to imagine how an elite athlete at the top of her game might form an identity based on her athletic or competitive performance. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes developmental scientist Ben Houltberg to reflect on the pursuit of achievement and excellence, exploring what’s at stake for our psychological and spiritual health when we find our identity and life’s meaning in our performance. Together they discuss: the glass shelter of athletic achievement and the opportunity that emerges when it inevitably shatters; the various performance contexts of family, relationships, education, sports, career, and religion; the dangers of conditional acceptance based on performance; the performance-enhancing impact of healthy coaching and mentoring relationships; the transformative effects of unconditional love; and ultimately, how to be free from a performance-based identity. About Ben Houltberg Benjamin Houltberg is a developmental scientist, experienced marriage and family therapist, and president and CEO of Search Institute. He is associate research professor at the University of Southern California, and was previously associate professor of human development at Fuller Theological Seminary’s School of Psychology. Follow him @benhoultberg, and learn more about Search Institute online. Show Notes About Ben Houltberg: developmental scientist, licensed marriage and family therapist, and CEO of Search Institute About “performance-based identity” Olympics and athletic performance-based identity “When we pursue excellence it doesn't have to come at the cost of our emotional and relational health.” “What is my purpose?” Olympic athlete Simone Biles’ public breakdown and dominant return to gymnastics “If you think about the natural trajectory of an elite athlete, it is towards a performance-based identity.” How elite athletes form their identity in their athletic performance. “A Glass Shelter” of athletic achievement: what happens when that glass shelter breaks? When the glass shelter breaks, it becomes a transformative opportunity. “Whether it was youth sports and training for a marathon, or whether it was in elite athletes or whether it was in different large organizations and their staff employees … the profile emerges that it is in some ways a human condition: that performance-based identity can really trap us into an approach to life and an approach to relationships and approach to competition that is undermining us and will eventually lead to a shattered sense of self.” Actor vs performer in the world (Action vs. Performance) Influenced by what other people think we are How to understand “performance context” across domains of sports, education, career, relationships, family, morality, and society at large The dangers of limiting our identities to performance Conditional acceptance based on performance Human relationships, connectivity, and collectivism as performance enhancing Coaching and mentoring to deal with the stress of performing NCAA sports Helping young people find “the spark”—their passion and potential and purpose How the Search Institute studies performance-based identity Christian faith and unconditional love How to be free from a performance-based identity Finding our identity in beauty, connection, and commonality Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    1h 0m
  8. Cultured Despisers of the Faith / A Conversing Short by Mark Labberton

    JUL 23

    Cultured Despisers of the Faith / A Conversing Short by Mark Labberton

    People have been given so many reasons to despise Christianity. What would it be to communicate with and for the “cultured despisers of the faith”? This was the audience Friedrich Schleiermacher wrote to in his seminal work, The Christian Faith, and it is the audience Mark Labberton sought to speak to when preaching at First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, California. In this Conversing Short, Mark considers the importance of communicating the gospel in its fullness to a culture that understandably despises Christianity, rather than domesticating it as the ecclesiastical industrial complex has. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes 19th-century theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher "Cultured despisers of the faith” (introduced in The Christian Faith and On Religion: Speeches to Its Cultured Despisers) Darwin, Freud, and Nietzsche “If you were a cultured person, you would have abandoned the faith.” “People's life circumstances have, for understandable reasons, left them in a position to despise the faith.” Reflecting Jesus or reflecting the “ecclesiastical industrial complex”? Christian questions about what really matters “The gospel itself, by God's revelation in Christ, if that's true, is a shocking surprise to the world.” How the Gospel has been domesticated by the Church Annie Dillard: if we understood the power of what we’re dealing with, we’d hand out crash helmets and seatbelts in church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    6 min
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Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

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