Conversing with Mark Labberton

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Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

  1. 1d ago

    Win or Lose, Run for Something, with Jeanelle Austin

    In February 2026, Jeanelle Austin filed for Minnesota Senate District 62. She started canvassing her district during a polar vortex, and persisted through triple-digit summer heat. And in August she lost in the Democratic Primary. In this episode, she sits down with Mark Labberton to reflect on what this experience has taught her about power, democracy, and what citizenship and neighbor-love means in the South Minneapolis neighborhood where she grew up. The executive director of Rise & Remember—the nonprofit that preserves the memorial at George Floyd Square—Austin followed a conviction, that if running for office meant she could save just one person's life, she would do it. She reflects on what it means to "run for something rather than against someone," the win-win campaign she designed by first answering what she would do with power if she lost, and the democratic machinery most voters never see: caucuses, delegates, conventions, endorsements, and party mailers that carry only the endorsed name. She reveals the shadow side of running against an incumbent in her own party: friends who could not endorse her, the party regular who said challengers to progressive incumbents should be punished, the front-porch conversations, the youth-built platform she carried to a rural Republican youth group, and the value a campaign loss is still worth when first-time voters turn out. Episode Highlights "I remember telling myself I would run for office if it meant that I could save somebody's life." "My dearest friends advised me to not run against someone, but to run for something … this was the first moment where I felt like I would be running for something, and something that really mattered." "I also understood that my power did not come from this seat. My power came from my community, my family, my cultural identity." "This is my home. This is where I grew up. This is my neighborhood. These are my people." "Is it not our responsibility to lift up our best leaders and choose from among them? We are oftentimes choosing between the lesser of two evils." "What are you willing to give up if you say that you love us as your neighbor?" "We have the power as people to make this democracy what we need it to be. But we first have to believe in ourselves." About Jeanelle Austin Jeanelle Austin is executive director and co-founder of Rise & Remember, the Minneapolis nonprofit that preserves thousands of offerings left at George Floyd Square, where she also serves as lead memorial caretaker. She founded Racial Agency Initiative, a racial justice leadership coaching practice, in 2019. She holds a BA in Christian ministries from Messiah College and an MDiv in ethics and an MA in intercultural studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. In 2026 she ran in the DFL primary for Minnesota Senate District 62. The fourth of seven children, she grew up in Minneapolis's Bryant neighborhood, just blocks from the site of George Floyd's killing at 38th and Chicago Avenue. Helpful Links and Resources Jeanelle For The People, Austin's 2026 campaign site: https://jeanelleforthepeople.com/ Rise & Remember, the nonprofit Austin directs: https://riseandremember.org/about/ A timeline of Operation Metro Surge, Minnesota Reformer: https://minnesotareformer.com/2026/02/20/a-chronology-of-operation-metro-surge/ Show Notes Jeanelle's pilgrimage in Palestine with a Black religious scholars delegation; meeting a father in the West Bank whose fifteen-year-old son was imprisoned for throwing rocks "Run for something, not against someone." What it means to a run a "win-win campaign," designed after being advised to decide what she would do with power if she lost How power is located in community, family, and cultural identity rather than in a state senate seat What it was like to challenge a beloved incumbent inside your own party Caucusing for the first time, room to room, learning the process in real time Jeanelle's campaign backdrop: Operation Metro Surge, polar vortex, No Kings protests Her journey from caucus to delegate to convention to endorsement to party resources Pre-recruited delegates and the structural advantage of incumbency; party mailers that carry only the endorsed candidate's name Section 8 notice periods and the gap that produces homelessness Youth-built priorities carried an hour west to a Republican youth group Gun safety, neighbor-love, rural versus urban gun culture Food shelves versus food stamps, and the question of dignity Primary night at the People's Way, turn out for first-time local voters Giving power back by teaching neighbors how to run for political office #JeanelleAustin #GeorgeFloydSquare #Minneapolis #RunForOffice #Democracy #CivicEngagement #FaithAndPolitics #Conversing Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    Win or Lose, Run for Something, with Jeanelle Austin

  2. Aug 25

    Women, Misogyny, and the Bible, with Beth Moore

    Growing up, Beth Moore was taught that 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 were the whole of what scripture had to say about women: submissive and silent. The founder of Living Proof Ministries and one of the most widely read Bible teachers in America, Moore objects to a hermeneutic limited to those passages. In this episode, Mark Labberton revisits his 2018 conversation with Beth Moore, recorded in the months following her viral open letter, "A Letter to My Brothers." Almost 10 years later, debates over women in leadership and whether women are free to use their full gifts in the full service of the church still roil American Christianity. This episode is an invitation to hear Moore's unique journey—discovering what it means to receive women as teachers and instructors of scripture for the building up of the church—and about the faithfulness of God to one woman's story, as she tries simply to be heard. They discuss the cost of speaking up in 2018 and the backlash that came hardest from women, her decision to repent of her own complicity, the way gender gets used abusively in every part of the church, and what it looks like to keep going with Jesus when the way ahead is cloudy. Episode Highlights "I very much am a big believer in the harbor of the church, that when it functions well … it's such a safe place for me. It was safer than my home, Mark." "Where I have been part of this and complicit in this, I will repent. So here is what I'm fighting for. I am fighting for us, and I don't just mean women. I mean women and men, brothers and sisters." "There is absolutely no world in which I would not have spoken up. … It would've been like expecting a dog not to bark at a burglar." "Where our Christianity … departs Christ-likeness, don't call it Christianity. … So if it is not like Him, it is not of Him." "I may not get it right, but I can no longer lay down to what I know is wrong." About Beth Moore Beth Moore is an evangelist, author, and Bible teacher who founded Living Proof Ministries in Houston in 1994 to teach women the scriptures. Her books and studies, including Breaking Free and So Long, Insecurity, have been translated into more than twenty languages. Her 2018 open letter "A Letter to My Brothers" named the misogyny she had absorbed in conservative evangelical life. She left the Southern Baptist Convention in 2021 and now worships as an Anglican. Her memoir, All My Knotted-Up Life, won the 2024 ECPA Book of the Year. She teaches now on the podcast Living Proof with Beth Moore. Helpful Links and Resources Living Proof Ministries, the organization Beth Moore founded in 1994: https://www.lproof.org "A Letter to My Brothers," May 2018 open letter: https://www.lproof.org/blog/a-letter-to-my-brothers All My Knotted-Up Life, Beth Moore's 2023 memoir: https://www.tyndale.com/p/all-my-knotted-up-life/9781496472670 Show Notes Moore's three-generation household; instability at home; the church as a harbor Receiving her calling at eighteen, off a pre-law political science track The surprise of discovering that theologically orthodox, scripture-loving people read women's ministry differently than her Passion drawn from pain; early trauma and a pattern she couldn't break Hypocrisy, pretense, and dreaming of fulfilled desires Strongholds and sexual sin: what her early context named but never taught people how to fight First Baptist Church Houston as a place safe enough to be corrected and still loved Pastor John Bisagno (1934–2018) asking her to speak on a Sunday night, and her own objection that she was a woman Palpable disesteem for a woman in ministry without academic credentials Playing by rules that others were not keeping Scripture as reason versus scripture as excuse Repenting of her own complicity Luke 8, the women at the resurrection, Paul's fellow workers at the end of Romans Backlash to Moore came hardest from women, including readers who abandoned her studies Asking questions on behalf of women without a microphone Affirming women formally while gender bias persists structurally The Samaritan woman at the well, and a Savior who gives dignity Obedience over clarity when the way ahead is cloudy #BethMoore #WomenInMinistry #Conversing #MarkLabberton #WomenInLeadership #Evangelicalism #BibleTeaching #ChurchToo #Complementarianism Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    Women, Misogyny, and the Bible, with Beth Moore

  3. Aug 18

    The Human Heart, with David Anderson

    Our hearts are restless, says Saint Augustine, until they find their rest in God. The biological science and the spiritual metaphor are in agreement here. Over the course of billions of beats, our hearts never stop to rest.  Your magnificent heart exchanges or pumps your entire blood volume, just over a gallon, every single minute. (Athlete hearts can pump up to 10 gallons per minute!) In this episode, Mark Labberton discusses matters of the heart with his close friend Dr. David Anderson, a cardiologist of four decades who trained at Johns Hopkins and helped launch one of the first interventional cardiology programs in San Francisco. Anderson reflects on the medical science of cardiology, the profound life-saving medical advances over the past forty years, heart disease versus coronary artery disease, how the brain and the heart communicate, and what happens during a heart attack. In the second half of their conversation, they move from physiology to spirituality of the heart: Pharaoh's hardened heart, "out of the heart the mouth speaks," and the human need to find somewhere to locate the self. Anderson closes with what a cardiologist would tell anyone worried about their own heart, and with a case for medicine as a noble profession. Episode Highlights "When I first began in cardiology, if your heart was damaged, imagining that the heart could actually improve its function was like imagining someone could grow back a new arm." "One of the distinctive things about the heart is unlike other muscles, it doesn't have a time to rest. When it gets insufficient blood supply, it can't just say, 'Whoa, I'm gonna stop here.' It asks you to slow down because it starts hurting." "I think that's part of the intrigue of the heart, that it is inside us … but in some ways it's apart from us. It's responding to environmental things that we're not really even aware of. … I think it's this sense of detachment of the heart from us—but yet its centrality—that has led people to posit the soul or the will or the passions or almost anything that you would think was the real you. "Atherosclerosis … I would describe as it's like having a pimple inside your artery." "First of all, know yourself. That is, it's not a time to be fatalistic because your father had a heart attack in his fifties or your brother just had a heart attack. It's a time to be proactive." About David Anderson David Anderson is a cardiologist who practiced for more than four decades before retiring. He studied at Stanford as an undergraduate and earned his medical degree at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. He stayed at Hopkins for residency, then trained in San Francisco at the dawn of interventional cardiology, helping to build an angioplasty program in the early 1980s. Helpful Links and Resources Alta Bates Summit Medical Center, Sutter Health, the Oakland hospital Anderson thanks by name: https://www.sutterhealth.org/about-us/our-hospitals/alta-bates-summit-medical-center DeWood et al., "Prevalence of Total Coronary Occlusion during the Early Hours of Transmural Myocardial Infarction," the 1980 study that identified clot as the cause of heart attack: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198010163031601 Waagstein et al., "Effect of chronic beta-adrenergic receptor blockade in congestive cardiomyopathy," the Swedish beta-blocker work behind the recovery he describes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1191416/ What Is Atherosclerosis, National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute: https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/atherosclerosis Warning Signs of a Heart Attack, American Heart Association: https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/heart-attack/warning-signs-of-a-heart-attack Angina (Chest Pain), American Heart Association, on the exertional pain he describes at the close: https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/heart-attack/angina-chest-pain Show Notes The impact of family gene pool, lifelong heart awareness How David Anderson got into medicine, and cardiology in particular A Hopkins autopsy elective, a teenager dead in a parking lot, a mentor who followed From internists interested in the heart to interventionists inside it Catheters, pressures, and the arrival of echocardiography Seeing a beating heart inside a living body for the first time, as a senior resident A colleague's heart attack in 1979 The 1980 angiography study that identified clot as the trigger Spring 1983: an artery occludes, the cath lab opens it, pain gone in fifteen minutes Bypass surgery before that: elective, scheduled, never mid-attack Prevention running under the technology: blood pressure, smoking, the lipid theory Fixing one artery and never having to fix another Coronary artery disease versus disease of the muscle itself Plasticity, not regeneration Adrenaline as an emergency system built for days, not decades Moving from technological advances to molecular-based understanding of heart problems Understanding of the pathophysiology of atherosclerosis and its prevention Beta blockers, ejection fraction, and hearts that came back The heart as a muscle with no rest The heart's own electrical center, and the backup pacemakers below it Your heart doesn't rely on you or your consciousness to beat Why the ancients may have located the self in the heart organ Jeremiah's pounding heart, Pharaoh's hardened one Pascal, the soul, and needing somewhere to put "the real you" Maintaining an appropriate degree of separation from the patient and their family in order to care properly and effectively The difficulty of delivering bad news to patients and their familes Digging for a shared history to call on in a crisis "Medicine is a noble profession." Heart care advice from a cardiologist: First, know yourself. Heart health checklist: cholesterol, blood pressure, weight, knowing your own history The pain that warrants a phone call #Conversing #MarkLabberton #Cardiology #Heart #MedicalScience #HeartHealth #Biology #ChristianHumanism Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    The Human Heart, with David Anderson

  4. Aug 11

    The God of the Unfinished, with Walter Brueggemann

    The Old Testament, Walter Brueggemann said, is an old text that simply refuses to stay old. "It reads like it was written yesterday." For him, God offers no artificial closure, but is active in the meantime, and at peace with the "unfinished." Walter Brueggemann died on June 5, 2025, at the age of ninety-two, and his own influence is unfinished. This episode is from the Conversing archives: a conversation Mark Labberton hosted with Brueggemann at Fuller Seminary for the 2015 Fuller Forum "Justice, Grace, and Law in the Mission of God." Brueggemann was an Old Testament scholar for the sake of the church, the author of over one hundred books including The Prophetic Imagination, and came to the Bible as a text-wrestler, "comfortable with collisions," taking the Hebrew text and his own life as an artist with equal and total seriousness. He describes his method of exegesis written longhand, "at the end of his pen," catching himself speaking the words as he writes them. Together they discuss the artistry of biblical language and why art is inherently subversive; Abraham Joshua Heschel on the suffering of God in Jeremiah; the pastor as scribe rather than prophet; the violence of God in the Old Testament and what it means to call it recovery; and justice as the "willingness to be inconvenienced." Brueggemann closes with Psalm 73: " Whom have I in heaven, and who do I desire on Earth but you?" Walter Brueggemann was the McPheeters Professor Emeritus of Old Testament at Columbia Theological Seminary. Episode Highlights A Scholar for the Church: "It took me a while to figure out that I wanted to be a scholar for the church and not for the academy … you wanna maintain your credibility in the academy, but it's not where you live." On the Old Testament: "It's so Jewish, and Jewishness means that it's conflicted and multi-vocal and multilayered and complex, and that's the nature of the text, and I think that's the nature of the God who indwells the text." The Everlasting Text: "It is an old text, but I always said to my students, it reads like it was written yesterday … it is an old text that refuses to stay old." On Subversiveness: "Art is inherently subversive because it wants to show us reality in a way that we have never before seen it … what we always wanna do with art or with the Bible is that we wanna cram it into the categories of the familiar." On Unfinishedness: "This is a God who stays faithful in the unfinishedness … in some ways, God isn't finished becoming God yet. So there is more light to break forth yet in our midst." On Fixing Everything: "Our society is about to forget what it means to be human in a technological, capitalist environment … The dominant value system of our society believes that everything can be fixed." Justice as Inconvenience: "I don't mind dying for Christ, but I don't wanna be inconvenienced … so much of justice work is just being inconvenienced." About Walter Brueggemann Walter Brueggemann (1933–2025) was among the most widely read Old Testament scholars of the past century, author of more than one hundred books, including The Prophetic Imagination and Theology of the Old Testament. Born in Tilden, Nebraska, to a German Evangelical pastor, he studied at Elmhurst College, Eden Theological Seminary, Union Theological Seminary, and Saint Louis University. He taught at Eden from 1961 to 1986 and at Columbia Theological Seminary from 1986 until his retirement in 2003, holding the William Marcellus McPheeters chair in Old Testament. His final book, God of All Promises, was published posthumously in 2026. Helpful Links and Resources Walter Brueggemann's official website: https://www.walterbrueggemann.com/ In memoriam and Celebration of Life service webpage: https://www.walterbrueggemann.com/2025/06/05/in-memory/ Brueggemann on X: https://twitter.com/waltbrueggemann The Prophetic Imagination, 40th Anniversary Edition, Fortress Press: https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9781506449302/The-Prophetic-Imagination Show Notes In memoriam: Walter Brueggemann, 1933–2025; died June 5, 2025 at 92 Recorded at the 2015 Fuller Forum: "Justice, Grace, and Law in the Mission of God" A rural pastor father, plain in the pulpit and unmistakable in his passion Doctoral study at Union under James Muilenburg, a close friend of Abraham Joshua Heschel Choosing the church over the academy, and what that vocational choice cost Historical criticism as necessary but never sufficient Multivocal Scripture The Old Testament's Jewishness as conflict, layering, complexity An ancient text that reads like it was written yesterday Biblical exegesis in longhand Micah 4: beating swords into plowshares Ecumenism that doesn't coerce Particularity over universal generalization; the scandal of incarnation Heschel on the pathos of God Jeremiah 8 and 9:  "Oh, that I had bigger tear ducts because I must cry more than my eyes will permit me." Why aiming at a doctrinal or moral outcome turns interpretation coercive Wendell Berry, and the discovery that combinations of words do things Art as a refusal of the familiar Unfinishedness Congregations that want closure, and the anxiety of leaving things open Biblical literacy The violence of God read as recovery rather than projection Justice as planned inconvenience: meetings, showing up, critical mass Psalm 73, and coming to oneself in a world of commodity Why the pastoral task feels urgent in a society sure everything can be fixed #WalterBrueggemann #PropheticImagination #OldTestament #Conversing #MarkLabberton #Preaching #Theology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    The God of the Unfinished, with Walter Brueggemann

  5. Aug 4

    An Unnecessary War, with Daniel Zoughbie

    Why are we still "kicking the hornet's nest"? The last time Mark Labberton interviewed Daniel Zoughbie (UC Berkeley/UCSF) for his expertise on international diplomacy in the Middle East, there was not yet an Iran war. Regardless of your geographical distance, this war is imminently important as it escalates and impacts not just Iran but the entire Middle East and the entire world economy. "War is really supposed to be a last resort." Taking seriously both the significance and validity of Israel as a nation and the need for appropriate and just treatment of all Jews, Christians, and Muslims during a time of rising anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, this conversation comes at a volatile moment, pregnant with violence and chaos in American foreign policy. Starting the timeline at the 2018 US exit from the "Iran nuclear deal" (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) Zoughbie discusses a variety of interconnected issues, including the role of Middle Eastern geography such as the Strait of Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab ("Gate of Tears"), the proliferation cascade a Saudi Arabian nuclear program could set off, and the difference between tactical brilliance and strategic vision. Together, they also consider hopes for improvement, looking at Gerald Ford's unpopular but effective ultimatum that forced Egypt and Israel to talk; the Olmert-Abbas negotiations that almost reached a two-state solution; the role of Christianity in politics; the danger of national pride; wisdom from antiquity in Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus the Great; and a definition of greatness that has nothing to do with force. Episode Highlights Regarding the term "an unnecessary war": "I think the word 'unnecessary' is absolutely the appropriate term, and I might just add another term: unjust. War is really supposed to be a last resort." "Iran has discovered not only that they have this nuclear program, which is incredibly powerful, but they've discovered that they have this power to shut off world's economy [through The Strait of Hormuz]." "Exiting [the JCPOA—Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action] was a really, really big blunder because we did not have anything else to fall back on. The Iranians pointed to this and said, 'Look, we can't trust your word.'" "I feel like the current atmosphere in Washington is really about 'me, mine, and more.' And for us to really have a change in our foreign policy ... we really need to think beyond ourselves as a country." "We'll always try to turn every problem into a nail, right? And we'll use our hammer to deal with that problem. And that's exactly why we're in this mess in the first place." "Greatness is not about testosterone shots. It's about being able to show mercy. It's about being able to see the humanity in others, even your enemy, and ultimately what I would call Herodotus's paradox, which is that the mightiest of the mighty turns an enemy into a friend." About Daniel Zoughbie Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, diplomatic historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at the UCSF/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics; principal investigator of Berkeley's Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative; and a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's MENA Futures Lab. He wrote Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and Indecision Points. He founded Microclinic International, whose model has reached refugee and low-income communities across four continents, and studied at Oxford as a Marshall and Weidenfeld Scholar. Helpful Links and Resources Kicking the Hornet's Nest, Zoughbie's 2025 book on twelve presidents and the Middle East https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest/Daniel-E-Zoughbie/9781668085226 "Toxic Foreign Policy and Citizen Diplomacy," Zoughbie's first Conversing conversation: https://comment.org/podcasts/toxic-foreign-policy-and-citizen-diplomacy/ "The Lesson Trump Can Take From Herodotus' Paradox" https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-lesson-trump-can-take-from-herodotus-paradox/ UN Security Council Resolution 2231, which endorsed the JCPOA https://main.un.org/securitycouncil/en/content/2231/background "World Oil Transit Chokepoints," the US Energy Information Administration on Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab https://www.eia.gov/international/content/analysis/special_topics/World_Oil_Transit_Chokepoints/ Gerald R. Ford's 1977 Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary commencement address, quoted at length in this episode https://www.christianitytoday.com/2006/12/gerald-r-ford-lessons-from-presidency/ Herodotus, The Histories, Book 1, where Croesus consults the Oracle and Cyrus spares him https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book%3D1 American University of Beirut, Zoughbie's standing example of citizen diplomacy https://aub.edu.lb/ Show Notes The 2018 exit from the Iran Nuclear Deal (the JCPOA, or Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) as the origin point of the current war P5+1: US, UK, Russia, China, France, plus Germany What the deal never covered: missiles, proxies, regional behavior Nuclear non-proliferation In the wake of the US bombing of Iran: enrichment stockpiles, IAEA detections, inspectors no longer on the ground An unnecessary and unjust war How to work backward from the real goals of American national security Proliferation cascade risk: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt Leverage the US still holds through China, Russia, India, and Pakistan The Saudi nuclear offer, walked back a day later over Israeli recognition Strait of Hormuz geography: 21 miles wide, shipping lanes two miles each The Red Sea, the Houthis, and the Bab el-Mandab ("The Gate of Tears") Israel's tactical brilliance and strategic blindness Mossad's mottos, drawn from Proverbs, and the danger of self-deception 1967 revisited: not a short war but a nuclear near-miss Gerald Ford as counterexample: the ultimatum that opened Egypt-Israel talks Gerald Ford's 1977 Gordon-Conwell address and his oath on the book of Proverbs Hubris: ancient and current Testosterone shots, lethality, and the inverse of humility Pastors and power in the Oval Office Reinhold Niebuhr, Karl Barth, and Christian nationalism Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus: mercy as the measure of greatness The path to Tehran runs through Jerusalem The Olmert-Abbas negotiations as a known formula Citizen diplomacy and the American University of Beirut What listeners can do, including welcoming Middle Eastern neighbors #Conversing #MarkLabberton #DanielZoughbie #IranWar #ForeignPolicy #StraitOfHormuz #NuclearProliferation #MiddleEast #Diplomacy #FaithAndPolitics Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    An Unnecessary War, with Daniel Zoughbie

  6. Jul 28

    What Forms a Christian Disciple?, with Tod Bolsinger

    What is it that actually forms our inner reality? Our values, our perspective, our judgment, our understanding of wisdom about the issues that really matter? What difference does that make in Christian character formation? The American church consistently produces fruit that many of its own leaders either don't recognize, don't want, or disapprove of. Under- and malformed Christian people reflect a grounding in the surrounding culture rather than the character and love and gospel of Jesus Christ. In this episode, author, professor, and consultant Tod Bolsinger argues that culture is the thing that forms you before you ever realize it, let alone consent to it. He suggests that the soil of community and belonging—rooted in attachment, vulnerability, trust, and joy—is what makes sense of exemplary models of Christian formation. "If you wanna grow good fruit—abundant harvests of good fruit—you don't focus on the fruit, you focus on the soil." With Mark Labberton, Tod reflects on the agricultural model of spiritual formation; regenerative farming and the impact of soil health on the quality of the fruit; the example of Andre Trocme and the French Huguenots of Le Chambon-sur-Lignon, village whose radical hospitality saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust; trust, pain, and care The intentionally formative community: joyful belonging, shared values, vulnerable self-reflection, care that isn't comfort. Episode Highlights "There are no dysfunctional systems. They all produce." "These people just lived out their faith." "The precognitive and the unconscious realities of our life are stronger than our words." "Nothing is as formative as the organizational culture you're in." About Tod Bolsinger Tod Bolsinger is co-founder and principal of AE Sloan Leadership, a coaching and consulting firm working with churches, nonprofits, universities, and businesses in seasons of change. He is associate professor of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he earned an MDiv and PhD and served six years as a vice president. His books include "Canoeing the Mountains," "Tempered Resilience," "It Takes a Church to Raise a Christian," and the four-volume Practicing Change Series. He was a Presbyterian pastor for 27 years, most recently in San Clemente, California. Helpful Links and Resources Tod's current project, Good Soil, Holy Ground: Preparing Your People for Facing Change https://www.aesloanleadership.com/good-soil-holy-ground  AE Sloan Leadership, Tod Bolsinger's coaching and consulting firm: https://www.aesloanleadership.com/ Canoeing the Mountains, Bolsinger's best-known book: https://www.ivpress.com/canoeing-the-mountains Tempered Resilience: How Leaders Are Formed in the Crucible of Change: https://www.ivpress.com/tempered-resilience The Practicing Change Series, Bolsinger's four most recent books: https://www.ivpress.com/practicing-change-serie The Biggest Little Farm: https://www.apricotlanefarms.com/biggest-little-farm/ Weapons of the Spirit, Pierre Sauvage's documentary on Le Chambon-sur-Lignon (from the Chambon Foundation): https://www.chambon.org/weapons_en.htm The Patient Ferment of the Early Church by Alan Kreider: https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/the-patient-ferment-of-the-early-church/339350 An Everyone Culture by Robert Kegan and Lisa Laskow Lahey, on deliberately developmental organizations: https://store.hbr.org/product/an-everyone-culture-becoming-a-deliberately-developmental-organization/14259 Show Notes Dallas Willard's worry: that spiritual formation would become commoditized—"a cottage industry instead of rooted deeply in the life of the church" "We take on the terroir of the soil, like the way a grape does for wine." "The Biggest Little Farm" documentary: how regenerative agriculture transformed a soil-depleted farm north of Los Angeles "If you wanna grow good fruit—abundant harvests of good fruit—you don't focus on the fruit, you focus on the soil" Rereading the parable of the sower "Jesus literally says that more powerful than his preaching is the soil that the word falls into." Systems perfectly designed for the results they get: "There are no dysfunctional systems. they all produce." No church ever started a program in Christian nationalism, no associate pastor, no strategic plan. "It just came up out of the soil." "Weapons of the Spirit" documentary: Le Chambon-sur-Lignon: How French pastor Andre Trocme led a small village of Huguenots to save thousands of Jewish refugees during the Holocaust. The pastors daughter, at age 93, on being told her parents were heroes: "You're very romantic about this. These people just lived out their faith." Counter-cultural cultivation Examples of radical communal formation: Amish forgiveness, Mother Emanuel AME Cultural competency vs. cultural humility Hospitality as the village economy Mother Teresa and entering East Beirut to save children because of (not in spite of) the bombing Brain scientists reaching for a word: "It is to be in a room with people who are happy to see you." "God, please make me the kind of person my dog thinks I am" The intentionally formative community, which "begins in joy, it ends in death" "Trust, pain, and care": Kegan and Lahey's deliberately developmental organizations, and the three words in the word cloud Are university theology faculty equipped to provide pastoral care to hurting, traumatized students? #SpiritualFormation #Discipleship #ChristianLeadership #LeChambon #AdaptiveLeadership #ChurchLeadership #ChristianNationalism #Fuller Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    What Forms a Christian Disciple?, with Tod Bolsinger

  7. Jul 21

    Technocracy and Encounter, with Brian Patrick Green

    Can technology be leveraged for the human good? Or will AI technology and its explosive expansion bring about the opposite—a culture that reduces our magnificent humanity to means for technocratic ends? "We can either create the Tower of Babel or we can rebuild the walls of the New Jerusalem." Brian Patrick Green has spent his career asking these difficult questions and seeking to apply ethical theory to real world technological developments. He is director of technology ethics at Santa Clara University's Markkula Center for Applied Ethics, and he is co-author of "Encountering Artificial Intelligence" as well as the newly released "Reclaiming Human Agency in the Age of Artificial Intelligence." In this episode, Green explains the technocratic paradigm—the worldview that reduces people and the created world to raw material, data, and units of production, and sets against it what Pope Francis called a culture of encounter. He and Mark Labberton discuss the argument and impact of Pope Leo XIV's May 2026 encyclical on artificial intelligence, "Magnifica Humanitas", an uplifting moral appeal to troubled people in troubled times. They discuss the Eucharist and the ongoing incarnation as the anchor of Catholic social teaching; how technocratic thinking distorts immigration and war from the Marshall Islands to autonomous drones in Ukraine; just war theory in an age of ever more powerful weapons; the encyclical's principles from human dignity to solidarity; and where AI genuinely serves the vulnerable in medicine, in surfacing hidden bias, and in caring for the Earth. Episode Highlights "It's one thing to have new technology. It's an even bigger question of how we actually use it and how it actually affects people." "If we look at every other human being and we say, "This is an image of God in front of me. This is a person who is loved by God just as much as I am," that really transforms our way of viewing each other. "We can either create the Tower of Babel or we can rebuild the walls of the New Jerusalem. "If one grain of sand says to the other grain of sand, 'I'm better than you are,' that's a weird thing for sand to be saying to each other." "It's an encyclical about AI ostensibly, but really it's an encyclical about humanity … and what our role is here in the universe." About Brian Patrick Green Brian Patrick Green directs technology ethics at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University, where he teaches engineers to weigh the human stakes of their work. A former genetics major, he turned toward technology's social impact after a year with the Jesuit Volunteers International in the Marshall Islands, a landscape marked by nuclear testing. He earned his doctorate at the Graduate Theological Union and has focused on AI since 2016. He co-authored "Encountering Artificial Intelligence: Ethical and Anthropological Investigations" and the new "Reclaiming Human Agency in the Age of Artificial Intelligence," and advises Catholic and multi-faith AI efforts, including at the Vatican. Helpful Links and Resources "Encountering Artificial Intelligence: Ethical and Anthropological Investigations," a 2023 volume Green contributed to, free online at the Journal of Moral Theology: https://jmt.scholasticahq.com/article/91230-encountering-artificial-intelligence-ethical-and-anthropological-investigations "Reclaiming Human Agency in the Age of Artificial Intelligence," 2025 co-edited by Green, free online: https://jmt.scholasticahq.com/article/154545-reclaiming-human-agency-in-the-age-of-artificial-intelligence "Magnifica Humanitas," Pope Leo XIV's 2026 encyclical on artificial intelligence, on the Vatican site: https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/encyclicals/documents/20260515-magnifica-humanitas.html AI and Faith, led by executive director Greg Cootsona: https://aiandfaith.org/ Notre Dame Institute for Ethics and the Common Good: https://ethics.nd.edu/ "The technocratic paradigm thus involves a double distortion: first, of the human person as reducible to an agent of interventions by which to manipulate life's material conditions; and, second, of the world—including the persons within it—as reducible to a field of raw material to be mastered and manipulated by means of technology. Against such reductions, the Pope urges that we cultivate a "culture of encounter"—a culture that seeks the contact of mind with mind and heart with heart, in a relational sharing of life that embraces the most vulnerable." (from "Encountering Artificial Intelligence: Ethical and Anthropological Investigations", 2023) Show Notes Defining applied ethics and technological ethics Comparing how we use technology versus the technology itself Marshall Islands, Jesuit Volunteers, and a genetics major's turn toward social impact From biotechnology to teaching ethics to engineers, and into AI around 2016 Catholic teaching on Eucharist, communion, and an incarnation that is ongoing and physical Pope Francis and the "culture of encounter" Why the material world and every person carry a sacredness ethics must honor Explaining the technocratic paradigm as a cultural phenomenon and social program Seeing a forest as quantifiable value of lumber; or construing people as cogs, data, units of exploitation Wendell Berry: "There are no unsacred places; / there are only sacred places / and desecrated places." Reducing the sacredness of human life to mere numbers Colonialism, nuclear testing, and islands treated as raw material Immigration read through a technocratic lens on both political sides The opposite of encounter: people as functions to move in or out Just war theory How drones and autonomous weapons turn killing into a problem of mere efficiency Squeezing just war criteria until war becomes nearly impossible Why this moral vision feels preposterous to a de-Christianized culture Culture of encounter, and seeing each other as images of God Romans 12 and the renewing of the mind—in order to transform how we see others Tower of Babel versus rebuilding the New Jerusalem Nehemiah, "synodality," and figuring things out together Dignity, common good, universal destination of goods, subsidiarity, solidarity, social justice Culture of power versus a civilization of love, and Augustine's "City of God" The reach and impact of "Magnifica Humanitas", from tech workers and CEOs to UN ambassadors Embracing the most vulnerable as the measure of encounter AI that serves: medical data, de-biasing loan decisions, watching the Earth from orbit AI that threatens: autonomous warfare, mass surveillance, people reduced to data Human agency, freedom, and the choice ahead #AIEthics #FaithAndTechnology #CatholicSocialTeaching #ArtificialIntelligence #TechnocraticParadigm #PopeLeoXIV #HumanDignity #MagnificaHumanitas #ConversingPodcast Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    Technocracy and Encounter, with Brian Patrick Green

  8. Jul 14

    Morality and the Supreme Court, with Yuval Levin

    American history is riddled with collisions between legally defensible rulings and morally costly outcomes. Still, "the purpose of law in any society is to embody a moral framework in practice," says Yuval Levin, who joins Mark Labberton to explore the moral architecture in the foundation of the American legal system, as they review the most recent rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. The Court has just closed one of the most consequential terms in recent memory, articulating the tension between faithfulness to the Constitution and enacting justice and morality. Together they reflect on why and how a system founded on equality must be both majoritarian and counter-majoritarian at once; why a judge's job is to articulate their legal (rather than their moral) opinion; the rise of Constitutional originalism; why pre-Trump conservative arguments win at this Court while "Trumpy" ones lose; the contemporary relevance of the Federalist Papers; what recourse citizens have when they believe the Court has done wrong; and why the American legal system's worst failures still cluster around race. They explore several of the 2025-26 rulings of the Supreme Court, including imposition of tariffs, immigration enforcement, and birthright citizenship, and the Voting Rights Act. Episode Highlights "The purpose of law in any society is to embody a moral framework in practice." "This is a very good time to get to know The Federalist Papers." "The role of the judge in the American system is to apply the law, not to find the moral answer per se. We hope the law does that, though it doesn't always and we know it." "The American system of government, very much for moral reasons, is expected to be both majoritarian and counter-majoritarian." [Regarding Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh] "They grew up in the same place. They literally went to the same high school and had the same history teacher. Their mothers knew each other … They agreed with each other 52% of the time in this last term of the Supreme Court." [Courts to Trump] "You are in charge of the executive branch, but the executive branch is not in charge of the American government." "If you come to this court with a pre-Trump conservative legal argument, you're going to win. If you come to this court with a Trumpy legal argument, you're going to lose." "We experienced the high water mark of executive power about a year ago, and it is now receding." "The areas where it has failed most are concentrated around questions of race. That has been true from the beginning. It is thankfully less true than it used to be, but it is still true, and I think we have to be uniquely sensitive to those questions for that reason." About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where he holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy and directs Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies. He founded and edits National Affairs, and he is a senior editor at The New Atlantis and a contributing editor at National Review. His books include "The Great Debate," "The Fractured Republic," "A Time to Build," and most recently, "American Covenant." He served on the White House domestic policy staff under George W. Bush and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago's Committee on Social Thought. Helpful Links and Resources Yuval Levin at the American Enterprise Institute: https://www.aei.org/profile/yuval-levin/ National Affairs, the publication Levin founded and edits: https://nationalaffairs.com/authors/detail/yuval-levin American Covenant, by Yuval Levin: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/american-covenant/9780465040742/?lens=basic-books A Time to Build, by Yuval Levin: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/a-time-to-build/9781541699281/?lens=basic-books The Federalist Papers, full text at the Library of Congress: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers Trump v. Slaughter, the decision overturning Humphrey's Executor (June 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/25-332_qn12.pdf Learning Resources, Inc. v. Trump, the IEEPA tariffs decision (February 20, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-1287_4gcj.pdf Louisiana v. Callais, the Voting Rights Act decision (April 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-109_21o3.pdf Coverage of the birthright citizenship ruling in Trump v. Barbara, SCOTUSblog: https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-trumps-order-ending-birthright-citizenship/ Show Notes Yuval Levin's legal/constitutional frame: The law exists to put a society's moral convictions into workable practice. On "All men are created equal": If no one has natural authority over anyone else, we decide by majority vote—but equality also means the minority keeps its rights no matter who wins The Constitution assigns those two jobs to different institutions and lets them fight: Congress and the president answer to majorities, the courts deliberately do not Life tenure and fixed salaries exist so justices can protect minority rights without fear of majority reprisal A judge's job is to say what the law is, not to reach the most just result; therefore good judges regularly land where they might wish they didn't. What citizens can do when the Court rules wrongly: If it misread a statute, Congress can rewrite it. Constitutional rulings are harder to undo, but examples include the 16th Amendment (re: income tax) and the 14th Amendment (re: black citizenship, answering the Court directly) The pro-life movement's 50-year strategy to overturn Roe v. Wade Levin on the difficulty of simply being in the political minority, and why the system tries to make everyone a winner sometimes Originalism began as a limit on judicial power and judges' preferences Legal originalism looks for original public meaning, not the drafters' intent Parallel to biblical interpretation, where faithful readers reach wildly different conclusions The challenge of interpreting and applying the Constitution to matters of freedom and democracy today With Congress mostly absent, the Court is now deciding questions of executive power the Federalist Papers were written about Justices Kavanaugh and Gorsuch: Same age, same hometown, same high school history teacher, agreed only 52% of the time this term Trump v. Slaughter ends the independent agency: the Court overturned Humphrey's Executor, and the president can now fire FTC-style commissioners at will 2026 Court rulings also told the president no: on tariffs, on the National Guard in Illinois without the governor's consent, and on birthright citizenship Levin's rule of thumb: Pre-Trump conservative arguments win at this Court, Trumpy arguments lose Yuval Levin: Executive power peaked about a year ago and is now receding. Louisiana v. Callais guts Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act by requiring proof of racial intent A legal bind: Black voters vote Democratic by 90% in the South, so a racist map and a purely partisan map look identical Levin defends the ruling as law and grieves it as outcome—several Black-held Southern seats will likely be redistricted away Why he opposes reauthorizing the VRA with race-based set-aside districts, and where he thinks change should come from instead Software now lets parties gerrymander voter by voter—in New England, Trump won 35% and Republicans hold zero House seats The deceptions of the human heart Does constitutional structure just launder self-interest? The system's deepest failures have always clustered around race Gratitude for the Constitution in America's 250th year #SupremeCourt #Constitution #VotingRights #Originalism #ExecutivePower #FaithAndPolitics #YuvalLevin #Conversing Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    Morality and the Supreme Court, with Yuval Levin
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Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

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