Send us Fan Mail Geoffrey Cain, author of Steve Jobs in Exile, joins Joe to explore one of the most overlooked chapters in Steve Jobs’ life: the twelve years between his fall from Apple and his return to build one of the most influential companies in the world. This episode looks beyond the familiar story of the iPhone, iPod, and Apple’s second act to examine the wilderness years that shaped Jobs into the leader we remember today. After being pushed out of Apple in 1985, Jobs was forced to confront failure, ego, rejection, and the limits of vision without discipline. What followed was a long and painful period of experimentation, mistakes, personal transformation, and eventual renewal through NeXT and Pixar. Geoffrey explains why the Steve Jobs who founded Apple was not the same Steve Jobs who returned in 1997. As a young leader, Jobs was brilliant but difficult, convinced of his own vision but often unable to listen to the people around him. At NeXT, that ego led to missed opportunities, broken relationships, and expensive failure. But over time, those same failures began to teach him the lessons he needed most: focus, discipline, humility, execution, and the ability to work within the limits of reality. Joe and Geoffrey also discuss: Why Steve Jobs’ time away from Apple was not wasted, but formativeHow NeXT helped lay the foundation for the Apple products we use todayWhy genius without discipline can end in expensive failureHow Jobs’ ego hurt NeXT and nearly destroyed his second actWhat Pixar taught Jobs about trust, creative restraint, and letting talented people do their workWhy failure can become the foundation for future successHow the “wilderness years” shape leaders before they return strongerWhy Jobs came back to Apple quieter, more focused, and more willing to listenWhat leaders can learn from Jobs’ journey through failure, reinvention, and returnThis episode is for anyone who has ever gone through a hard season and wondered whether it was wasted. It’s also for leaders, builders, creatives, and entrepreneurs who want to better understand how failure, if we are willing to learn from it, can become the preparation for our most important work. A special thanks to this week's sponsors! Dunedain Systems is a veteran-founded defense technology company building Warmind, an AI platform that accelerates military planning, operations, and document generation. Warmind connects to your unit’s data and learns how your warfighting function operates, delivering outputs tailored to your SOPs and operational context rather than generic AI responses. Whether your team is building OPORDs, running intel workflows, or generating CONOPs, Warmind handles the heavy lift so your staff can focus on decisions, not paperwork. Built by combat veterans who lived the problem firsthand, Warmind is already in use across SOCOM and the broader DoD. The beta is free for anyone with a .mil or .edu email at dunedainsystems.com. Veteran-founded Adyton. Step into the next generation of equipment management with Log-E by Adyton. Whether you are doing monthly inventories or preparing for deployment, Log-E is your pocket property book, giving real-time visibility into equipment status and mission readiness. Learn more about how Log-E can revolutionize your property tracking process here! Meet ROGER Bank—a modern, digital bank built for military members, by military members. With early payday, no fees, high-yield accounts, and real support, it’s banking that gets you. Funds are FDIC insured through Citizens Bank of Edmond, so you can bank with confidence and peace of mind.
