New Law Order

TalksOnLaw
  • 5.0 (8)
  • BUSINESS
  • UPDATED BIWEEKLY

New Law Order is a podcast and limited interview series about the coming shake-up in legal services. Hosted by lawyer and TalksOnLaw founder Joel Cohen and Yale Law School Professor John Morley, the show interrogates the technologies, business models, and incentives quietly—and not so quietly—rewiring the legal industry. Each episode is a candid conversation with someone actively changing how law gets done: managing partners challenging Biglaw orthodoxy, founders building alternative legal platforms, and thinkers willing to question even sacred assumptions. With insight, skepticism, and a sense of humor, New Law Order examines what’s breaking, what’s surviving, and what the legal industry would rather not talk about—but must. Guests include Brad Karp (Chairman, Paul Weiss), John Quinn (Founder, Quinn Emanuel), Chris Bogart (CEO, Burford Capital), Michael Gerstenzang (Managing Partner, Cleary Gottlieb), and Jeffrey Toobin (author and legal analyst).

Episodes

  1. Litigation as an Asset Class

    4D AGO

    Litigation as an Asset Class

    What happens when you stop treating litigation as a cost center—and start treating it like capital? In this episode of New Law Order, Joel Cohen and John Morley sit down with Chris Bogart, co-founder and CEO of Burford Capital, to unpack how legal finance emerged—and what it reveals about the structural limits of the modern law firm. Bogart traces the origins of litigation finance to his time as a litigator at Cravath, Swaine & Moore and later as General Counsel of Time Warner, where constant pressure from CFOs exposed a deeper problem: dollars spent on litigation don’t just reduce earnings—they reduce enterprise value by multiples. In that light, litigation finance is about preserving balance-sheet value. The conversation reframes litigation as a financial asset—one that can be underwritten, modeled, and monetized—while also explaining why traditional law-firm partnerships struggle to do this themselves. Bogart lays out how annual partner distributions, high partner mobility, and prohibitions on outside capital make Big Law structurally ill-suited to finance long-dated risk. He also explains how medieval doctrines like champerty lost their force, clearing the way for institutional capital to enter the space. Finally, Bogart pulls back the curtain—carefully—on how Burford evaluates cases, and why litigation finance increasingly functions as a tool for risk management rather than speculation. In this conversation: Litigation as Capital Allocation: Why legal spend can destroy multiples of market value—and how funding changes the equationWhy Law Firms Can’t Be Banks: Partner mobility, annual distributions, and the cash-flow problem baked into Big LawUnderwriting a Lawsuit: How Burford evaluates merits, economics, and collectability—and why most cases don’t qualify Guest: Chris Bogart is the CEO and co-founder of Burford Capital, the world’s largest litigation finance firm. A former partner at Cravath and former General Counsel of Time Warner, he pioneered legal finance and helped bring it into the mainstream of global capital markets. For more conversations with the figures reshaping the legal business, subscribe to New Law Order. For a CLE-eligible version of this interview and more legal analysis, visit www.talksonlaw.com. For questions or comments, email newlaworder@talksonlaw.com .

  2. Building a World Litigation Empire

    FEB 3

    Building a World Litigation Empire

    John Quinn proved the legal industry orthodoxy wrong. In a world obsessed with the "full-service" law firm model—where litigation can feel like a service arm for lucrative corporate retainers—Quinn bet the house on a radical idea: a global firm dedicated exclusively to legal disputes. Today, Quinn Emanuel is a litigation behemoth with over 1,000 lawyers, generating billions in revenue without closing a single M&A deal. In this conversation, Quinn joins Joel and John to share the unlikely origin story of the firm, which began in 1986 with a business plan that completely failed. He explains the crucial pivot away from trying to be outside general counsel to focusing narrowly on what they did best: trying cases. He reveals how this specialization led to their greatest strategic advantage—a "conflict-free" platform allowing them to sue major global banks and institutions that traditional white-shoe firms couldn't touch. Quinn also opens up about the firm’s aggressive talent strategy, detailing the game-changing hire of superstar Kathleen Sullivan, and explains why they have generally avoided merging with other firms in favor of organic growth. Finally, he offers some skepticism on the AI hype in legal services, arguing why artificial intelligence won't replace human judgment required for high-stakes advocacy anytime soon. Guest: John Quinn is the Founder and Chairman of Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP, the largest business litigation firm in the world. For more conversations with the titans changing the legal business, subscribe to New Law Order.  For a lawyer CLE version of this interview and other legal insights, visit www.talksonlaw.com. For questions or comments about the show email us at newlaworder@talksonlaw.com.

    1h 15m
  3. Law According to Karp

    JAN 27

    Law According to Karp

    Brad Karp, Chairman of Paul Weiss, is arguably the most powerful law firm leader in America—and he has had a hell of a year. Eight weeks after suffering a heart attack, Karp faced what he calls the "existential crisis" of his career: a "nuclear" executive order from the Trump administration designed to destabilize his firm. In this exclusive and candid interview, Karp sits down with Joel and John to share what he’s learned at the helm of one of the world's leading and most profitable firms. He opens up about the radical transformation of Paul Weiss from a litigation-focused partnership into a private equity and M&A powerhouse.  Brad also shares the inside story of how Paul Weiss survived the White House's bombshell executive order against it. While critics (including our illustrious previous guest, Jeffrey Toobin) have called the firm's settlement a "capitulation," Karp argues it was a necessary duty to protect thousands of employees from a "run on the bank" that would have destroyed the firm. Spoiler– John agrees. Guest: Brad Karp is the Chairman of Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison. For more conversations with the titans changing the legal business, subscribe to New Law Order. For a lawyer CLE version of this interview and other legal insights, visit www.talksonlaw.com. For questions or comments about the show email us at newlaworder@talksonlaw.com.

    1h 14m
  4. Bending the Knee – Toobin on the Trump Executive Orders

    JAN 20

    Bending the Knee – Toobin on the Trump Executive Orders

    What happens when the President of the United States declares war on specific law firms? In a move described as "literally without precedent" , the Trump administration unleashed executive orders targeting major firms like Paul Weiss and Perkins Coie—not for illegal activity, but for perceived political offenses. The sanctions threatened to revoke security clearances, bar lawyers from federal buildings, and cancel government contracts for the firms' clients. In this episode of New Law Order, hosts Joel Cohen and John Morley sit down with legal analyst and author Jeffrey Toobin to dissect this constitutional crisis and the industry’s fractured response. While some firms litigated and won, others "capitulated," agreeing to multi-million dollar settlements to make the problem go away. Was this a necessary move to save their firms from an "existential threat" resembling a run on the bank? Or was it, as Toobin suggests, a sacrifice of principle to protect partner profits? Guest: Jeffrey Toobin is a staff writer for The New Yorker, a senior legal analyst for CNN, and the author of several best-selling books, including The Nine and The Oath. Premium subscribers on Apple Podcasts get early access to upcoming episodes and occasional subscriber-only content. For more conversations with the titans changing the legal business, subscribe to New Law Order. For a lawyer CLE version of this interview and other legal insights, visit www.talksonlaw.com.

    1h 16m
  • 4 Episodes

5
out of 5
8 Ratings

About

New Law Order is a podcast and limited interview series about the coming shake-up in legal services. Hosted by lawyer and TalksOnLaw founder Joel Cohen and Yale Law School Professor John Morley, the show interrogates the technologies, business models, and incentives quietly—and not so quietly—rewiring the legal industry. Each episode is a candid conversation with someone actively changing how law gets done: managing partners challenging Biglaw orthodoxy, founders building alternative legal platforms, and thinkers willing to question even sacred assumptions. With insight, skepticism, and a sense of humor, New Law Order examines what’s breaking, what’s surviving, and what the legal industry would rather not talk about—but must. Guests include Brad Karp (Chairman, Paul Weiss), John Quinn (Founder, Quinn Emanuel), Chris Bogart (CEO, Burford Capital), Michael Gerstenzang (Managing Partner, Cleary Gottlieb), and Jeffrey Toobin (author and legal analyst).

Information

  • Channel
    TalksOnLaw
  • Creator
    TalksOnLaw
  • Years Active
    2K
  • Episodes
    4
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2026 New Law Order
  • Show Website
    New Law Order

More From TalksOnLaw

You Might Also Like