Telling Jefferson Lies: Debunking the Myth that America was Founded as a Christian Nation

Warren Throckmorton

Season Two is here! The first episode was posted on April 14. Telling Jefferson Lies chronicles how history can be hijacked for ideological and political purposes, as well as a much broader story about the surge of Christian nationalism and the misuse of history which often goes along with it.  The series begins with an in-depth consideration of the methods of Christian nationalist story teller David Barton. Then I tell the story of how his book on Jefferson was pulled from publication in 2012 and the response of evangelicals to that rare event. From there, I broaden the scope to examine the varieties of Christian nationalism and the negative consequences of this way of thinking about church and state. The last segment examines the reasons why the separation of church and state is good history, good civics, and good religion. For more information, go to http://www.gettingjeffersonright.com. 

  1. The Value of Religious Freedom: An Interview with Roger Finke

    AUG 7

    The Value of Religious Freedom: An Interview with Roger Finke

    Send us a text Roger Finke is distinguished professor emeritus of sociology and international affairs at Penn State University. Roger is also the founder of the Association of Religion Data Archives, which is an online archive of the best religion data available, a standard research tool for social scientists. He is the author of several books including the subject of today's interview: The Price of Freedom Denied: Religious Persecution and Conflict in the 21st Century (2011) co-authored with Brian Grim.  In this book, Grim and Finke found that as religious freedoms are denied in a society, both by government and by social groups within a society, religious persecution increases. Given the quasi-establishments of evangelical Christianity developing throughout the land, it is important to be aware of the potential consequences of these church-state alliances.   The Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) - www.thearda.com. The co-directors are Andrew Whitehead and Christopher Bader. Regular listeners will recall my interview with Andrew in episode 5.  Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair.  Artwork provided by Sarah Eshelman Produced and hosted by Warren Throckmorton The series will be on hold throughout the remainder of August while I complete The Christian Past That Wasn't, due out next year. You can pre-order it anywhere books are sold. The Amazon link is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0FCCCP71V The next episode will post sometime in September. Thanks for listening!

    41 min
  2. Does Christian Nationalism Work? An Interview with Paul Matzko, Part Two

    AUG 2

    Does Christian Nationalism Work? An Interview with Paul Matzko, Part Two

    Send us a text Today's segment is the second part of my interview with Paul Matzko, historian and senior program manager at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. Paul is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. Our topic today is Paul's answer to the question: has Christian nationalism ever worked?  Listen in to find out.  As a part of addressing the question, Paul tells the story of Quaker martyr Mary Dyer.  Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Jonus Fair.  Artwork by Sarah Eshelman. Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton

    25 min
  3. What is Christian Nationalism? An Interview with Paul Matzko, Part One

    JUL 27

    What is Christian Nationalism? An Interview with Paul Matzko, Part One

    Send us a text Paul Matzko is a historian and senior program manager for AI and emerging technology at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. He is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and host of the Unintended Consequences podcast.  Today, he joins me to discuss how Christian nationalism differs from citizen engagement with politics. Often Christian nationalists complain that they are simply living out their faith in the public square. However, Paul teases out the differences between policies which benefit the common good and those which are designed to benefit mainly or only Christians affiliated with the regime in power.  This is part one of a two-part interview. Next week, I will have the conclusion where Paul talks about the bitter consequences of Christian nationalism and addresses the question: Has Christian nationalism ever worked? Topics today: What is Christian nationalism?Christian nationalism and the ideology of South African apartheidChristian nationalism and Geralf L. K. SmithBilly Sunday and the KlanMAGA as the modern America First movementChristian nationalism is a different faith than orthodox ChristianityChristian nationalism and public schoolsand much more...Music today is provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonus Fair, and Dustin Blatnik. Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton Artwork by Sarah Eshelman

    38 min
  4. The Crisis of Christian Nationalism: An Interview with Jemar Tisby

    JUL 18

    The Crisis of Christian Nationalism: An Interview with Jemar Tisby

    Send us a text This segment includes a significant amount of a recent interview with historican and author Jemar Tisby. Although I interviewed Jemar in the spring, the content is incredibly timely and relevant now. In this discussion, we cover the Trump administration's war on due process, diversity programs, and foreign aid.  A recurring theme is the grift, greed, and cruelty of the Trump administration's Christian nationalism. Jemar challenges listeners to speak the truth and act to preserve our freedoms.    From the segment: "To put it in Christian terms, White Christian nationalism is wrong on a lot of levels, but if you want to talk about a very basic level, it's a violation of the third commandment: thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain. Which of course doesn't refer to to cussing or using bad words. It's fundamentally about not doing things in God's name that God would never condone." In response to the interview and recent events, I ask: Why is an administration which claims the US is a Christian nation known for its cruelty rather than compassion?" SHOW NOTES: Jemar Tisby's Substack: http://jemartisby.substack.com Non-violence training with the King Center, July 19, Noon-3pm (et): https://jemartisby.substack.com/p/train-in-nonviolence-with-the-king The Spirit of Justice: https://jemartisby.com/the-spirit-of-justice/ Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Dustin Blatnik, and Jonus Fair.

    30 min
  5. Money, Lies, and God: An Interview with Katherine Stewart

    JUL 7

    Money, Lies, and God: An Interview with Katherine Stewart

    Send us a text Today I feature an interview with Katherine Stewart, the author of the New York Time bestseller Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy.  The segment is timely in that we discuss income disparities accentuated by the passage of the recent Trump budget. The dominance of Christian nationalism in the current administration isn't helping many of the foot soldiers who helped bring Trump to power.  Katherine discusses her new book and much more. Here is a sampling of topics: The uneasy coalitions in Christian nationalism and MAGA worldThe lifeblood of Christian nationalism: bad historyReligious liberty means the freedom to do what Christian nationalists want to doReligion is a tool of autocratic leadersThe threat of the New Right to American governancePower is what unites the religion of the New RightDavid Barton (Where's Waldo) is still activeThe rank and file are ultimately victims of the theology of powerCREDITS: Music is provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair. Artwork is by Sarah Eshelman.

    49 min
  6. The Fears of Christian Nationalism: Interview with Andrew Whitehead

    JUN 29

    The Fears of Christian Nationalism: Interview with Andrew Whitehead

    Send us a text Why are Christian nationalists angry about the New York City Democratic mayoral primary victory of Zohran Mamdani? They surely are. Many are blaming "unchecked" immigration for his win. White Christians nationalist fear they are being replaced by too many non-Christians and too many black and brown people. In light of this event and the overall attacks on immigrants taking place in Trump's America, have I got a segment for you. We also hear from a founding father on why Muslims should not be discriminated against.  In contrast to prior episodes, this one features one guest: Sociologist Andrew Whitehead. Andrew is associate professor of sociology at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, where he codirects the Association of Religion Data Archives at the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture. He is also the author of American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church (2023) and co-author with Samuel Perry of Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States (2020).  The focus of the episode is what Christian nationalists fear, which is almost everything. Andrew does a wonderful job of breaking down what Christian nationalists fear and how fear is related to Christian nationalism. We also discussed why the Christian aspect of Christian nationalism isn't enough for Christian nationalists. It is good and proper to discuss the deficits in Christian nationalist history, but it is also important to understand the psychology behind the Christians who seek comfort in nationalism.  This isn't all about psychology; there is some history too. We hear from James Iredell, an early Supreme Court justice who has a good word for us today.  Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Dustin Blatnik.  Hosted and produced by Warren Throckmorton

    40 min
  7. Bonus Episode: America's Founding - Secular Government, Religious Freedom

    JUN 25 · BONUS

    Bonus Episode: America's Founding - Secular Government, Religious Freedom

    Send us a text Be it resolved: America's founders established a secular government with provision for a religious people. When the delegates met in Philadelphia in the summer of 1787, they deliberately prevented the government from favoring any religion. Then when the Bill of Rights were added, freedom of religious expression was guaranteed.  Those who wanted a Christian government at the time were upset at what they called the religious defect in the Constitution. They were honest enough to admit what today's Christian nationalists often cover up: The Constitution is not a Christian document and the nation was not founded on the basis of Christianity.  The Christian myths surrounding the Constitutional Convention and Constitution came out later. At the time, most people recognized that the founding was secular.  This is a bonus episode with regular segments to return in July.  Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack. Segment written by Warren Throckmorton Artwork: Sarah Eshelman

    12 min
  8. That's Not Fair and That's Not American

    MAY 13

    That's Not Fair and That's Not American

    Send us a text Recently, David Barton and Matt Krause testified in front of the Texas House of Representatives Public Education committee. Barton and Krause both said some historically questionable things to support the placement of the Ten Commandments in every Texas classroom. A premise of this podcast is that it takes faulty history to pursue Christian nationalist goals, one of which is to erode separation of church and state.  Texas Representatives John Bryant and James Talarico scrutinized Barton's and Kruse's arguments and determined that placing a Christian version of the Ten Commandments in every Texas classroom was unfair and un-American.  The episode begins with a passionate appeal by Bryant and Talarico for fairness and ends with an analysis of faulty history which is being used to oppose fairness.  Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack (Gulf of Mexico Blues, Nebula); Jeremiah Lawson (Sonata for Guitar in A minor), and Jonus Fair (The Rest is History). Written and produced by Warren Throckmorton The podcast will be on break until June. Watch for new episodes with material from Andrew Whitehead, Katherine Stewart, Roger Finke, Jemar Tisby, Jeremie Beller, and much more in the second half of season two.

    35 min
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About

Season Two is here! The first episode was posted on April 14. Telling Jefferson Lies chronicles how history can be hijacked for ideological and political purposes, as well as a much broader story about the surge of Christian nationalism and the misuse of history which often goes along with it.  The series begins with an in-depth consideration of the methods of Christian nationalist story teller David Barton. Then I tell the story of how his book on Jefferson was pulled from publication in 2012 and the response of evangelicals to that rare event. From there, I broaden the scope to examine the varieties of Christian nationalism and the negative consequences of this way of thinking about church and state. The last segment examines the reasons why the separation of church and state is good history, good civics, and good religion. For more information, go to http://www.gettingjeffersonright.com. 

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