The Non-Billable Podcast

Non-Billable

The Non-Billable Podcast takes UK legal professionals beyond the billable hour, bringing you interviews with top lawyers, law firm leaders, industry experts and legal tech innovators to uncover actionable insights on the business of law, career growth and the future of the industry. Hosted by Oliver Attinger, a former finance lawyer at a leading City law firm - now asking the questions he wished he had when he was practising. Brought to you by Non-Billable, the legal media platform for City lawyers, in-house counsel, and legal professionals.

  1. The rise of the $30m law firm partner: Inside the US Big Law market

    6D AGO

    The rise of the $30m law firm partner: Inside the US Big Law market

    In this episode, David Nicol, headhunter and co-head of Marsden’s US practice, breaks down the structure of the US legal market and how it has evolved over the past decade. From the dominance of New York as the global dealmaking hub to the distinct identities of markets like California, Texas and Chicago, he explains why the US is far more complex and fragmented than many outside it assume. The conversation explores the rise of firms like Kirkland & Ellis and Latham & Watkins, and how they have reshaped the traditional hierarchy once dominated by Wall Street white shoe firms. We also get into the economics of the top end of the market, including partner pay, the realities of the lateral market and what it takes to attract and retain elite rainmakers. Nicol explains why compensation structures, client demands and platform capabilities all play a role in driving partner moves. Finally, the discussion looks ahead to what could shape the next phase of the US legal market, from the continued growth of private capital and restructuring work to the potential impact of AI on law firm economics and structure. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters 00:01 Introduction 02:40 Understanding the US legal market structure 04:39 Why New York still dominates global Big Law 07:07 California, Texas and the rise of regional powerhouses 12:30 Boston, Chicago and DC: key secondary markets 16:33 Magic Circle firms in the US: what’s working and what’s not 23:07 Partner pay and the $30M rainmaker reality 28:19 Lateral moves, Wachtell and shifting firm models 32:02 Kirkland, AI and what comes next for Big Law About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    38 min
  2. How to drive change inside a global law firm: White & Case innovation chief Isabel Parker

    APR 7

    How to drive change inside a global law firm: White & Case innovation chief Isabel Parker

    Isabel Parker, chief innovation officer at White & Case, joins the podcast to talk about what it takes to drive innovation inside a global law firm. A former Freshfields lawyer and Deloitte partner, she shares how her career evolved from practice into leading transformation at one of the world’s largest firms. She explains why innovation isn’t just about technology, even in the age of AI. The real challenge, she says, is time and mindset - getting lawyers to see tools like AI as part of their core role, not something delivered by a separate team. Her goal is to shift ownership of innovation to lawyers themselves. We also get into White & Case’s AI strategy, including the build of its in-house platform Atlas and its broader approach. Parker makes the case for developing internal capability alongside adopting best-in-class tools, particularly in such a fast-moving market. Finally, she shares her views on what will actually differentiate firms going forward - not the tools themselves, but how quickly firms can upskill their people and make better use of their data. And for individual lawyers, the key skill is simple: disciplined curiosity. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters 00:01 Introduction 02:30 From Freshfields lawyer to innovation leader 04:37 Lessons from Deloitte and working closer to clients 06:39 What a Chief Innovation Officer actually does 08:59 Why time and mindset are the biggest barriers to innovation 11:56 Culture, experimentation and the lawyer mindset 14:59 White & Case’s AI strategy and building Atlas 17:56 Build vs buy vs partner: making the right AI bets 23:51 What will differentiate law firms in the AI era About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    28 min
  3. How Broadfield is rethinking the mid-market law firm model

    MAR 31

    How Broadfield is rethinking the mid-market law firm model

    John Hutchinson, managing partner of top 100 law firm Broadfield, joins the podcast to discuss the firm’s transformation from BDB Pitmans into a tech-enabled, internationally focused mid-market player. He explains the thinking behind the rebrand and the partnership with SHP, a subsidiary of Alvarez & Marsal, designed to support investment in technology, talent and global expansion. He outlines how that relationship works in practice, with Broadfield remaining independent but gaining access to infrastructure, strategic insight and tools like Harvey. The goal is to build a more integrated, end-to-end platform for delivering legal services, while improving efficiency and client value. Hutchinson also shares his perspective on private equity in law, arguing it works for some firms but isn’t the only model. Broadfield is instead focused on long-term growth, international reach and more "sensible pricing", moving beyond simply increasing hourly rates. Looking ahead, the firm is targeting expansion across Europe and the the Middle East, with a focus on private capital and cross-border work. Hutchinson says success in today’s market will come down to combining technology, talent and a clear value proposition for clients. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters 00:01 Introduction 02:40 From BDB Pitmans to Broadfield: the rebrand and strategy shift 06:18 The Alvarez & Marsal connection and tech-driven model 09:55 Private equity in law firms: opportunity and limits 14:12 Building an international platform: US, Hong Kong and beyond 17:43 The mid-market squeeze and rethinking pricing models 22:09 AI, Harvey and the impact on law firm economics 24:21 Leadership, culture and managing rapid change 27:25 Hiring strategy and attracting the next generation of partners About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    29 min
  4. How AI-powered Lawhive plans to build a global consumer law firm

    MAR 24

    How AI-powered Lawhive plans to build a global consumer law firm

    Pierre Proner is the CEO and co-founder of Lawhive. He joins the podcast to explain how his company is combining AI with a regulated law firm model to rethink consumer legal services. He shares how Lawhive pivoted from initially offering software to law firms, driven by a mission to improve access to legal help and reduce the inefficiencies in how consumer law is delivered. He discusses why selling software to traditional firms only went so far, with resistance tied to billable hours and legacy models. That led Lawhive to become a law firm itself, building an end-to-end AI operating system that supports everything from client intake to drafting and back-office work, with lawyers staying firmly “in the loop”. The episode also breaks down how the model works across markets. In the UK, Lawhive uses a consultancy-style platform, while in the US it operates through an Arizona ABS and a co-counsel network. Proner says the tech can significantly increase lawyer productivity and earnings by reducing non-billable work. Finally, he talks about growth. With over $100 million raised, Lawhive is now focused on scaling in the US through expansion and acquisitions, aiming to build a global consumer law firm powered by AI. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 From fintech to legal tech: the origin of Lawhive 03:41 Building an AI operating system for consumer law 06:19 Why selling software to law firms wasn’t enough 07:47 Becoming a regulated law firm and changing the model 10:03 Inside the Lawhive platform: AI across the full workflow 13:05 Productivity gains, margins and lawyer economics 17:05 UK vs US: consultancy model and co-counsel expansion 21:06 Funding, US growth and the ambition to build a global consumer law firm About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    32 min
  5. Inside Ropes & Gray's Europe strategy: Private capital, Milan and an all-equity partnership

    MAR 17

    Inside Ropes & Gray's Europe strategy: Private capital, Milan and an all-equity partnership

    Ropes & Gray has been quietly rolling out one of the most ambitious European growth strategies among US firms in London. In this episode, London managing partner Rohan Massey and antitrust partner Ruchit Patel, who also sits on the firm’s governing policy committee, join the show to discuss how the firm has grown its London office from a two-partner launch in 2010 into a 250-person hub. We talk about the firm’s push across Europe, including the recent launches in Paris and Milan, and why Ropes sees London as the centre of a broader European platform. Patel explains how the strategy is driven primarily by client demand - particularly from private capital clients - and why the firm has chosen to build a single integrated European platform rather than operate offices as separate profit centres. The conversation also explores the competitive dynamics of the London market, where US firms have dramatically expanded over the past decade. Massey and Patel discuss how Ropes thinks about talent, lateral hiring and institutionalising client relationships, including why the firm emphasises collaboration across offices and practice groups. Finally, we get into one of the firm’s more unusual strategic choices: sticking with a single-tier, all-equity partnership while much of the legal industry moves towards multi-tier structures. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Today’s episode is also supported by Definely. To find out more about Definely, visit: https://www.definely.com/nonbillable Chapters 00:01 Introduction
01:44 The origins and growth of Ropes & Gray’s London office 04:31 The rise of US law firms in London 05:43 Ropes & Gray’s European private capital strategy 09:57 Paris and Milan: the firm’s newest growth engines 11:30 Why Ropes believes collaboration is its competitive edge 14:45 Talent, lateral hiring and building the partnership 17:47 Institutionalising client relationships across the firm 20:08 Why Ropes is sticking with a single-tier equity partnership About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    29 min
  6. 'AI is a top priority': Peter Duffy on the tech bets reshaping Big Law

    MAR 3

    'AI is a top priority': Peter Duffy on the tech bets reshaping Big Law

    Legal tech has gone from “let’s run a few pilots” to “we need to scale this across the whole firm” - and Peter Duffy says that shift is now well underway in the UK’s top law firms firms. Peter is the founder of Titans, a boutique legal tech and AI consultancy advising large law firms, and he joins the podcast to take the temperature of the market and explain why things feel like they’ve accelerated so sharply in the past year. We dig into how firms are buying right now: a strategic bet on a general-purpose legal AI platform - with Harvey and Legora emerging as the leading contenders at the top end - and then a layer of point solutions where the platform workflows still leave gaps. Peter also explains why many in-house tools made sense early on, but why firms are increasingly hitting a ceiling trying to compete with well-funded vendors shipping at startup speed. Peter weighs in on the recent chaos around Anthropic’s legal tools and why he thinks the market reaction was knee-jerk. “If I was to run an RFP… that would absolutely not be in the top 10,” he says, arguing the product is still nowhere near what specialist vendors can do today - even if the direction of travel is obvious. Finally, we talk moats and where legal tech competition is heading next: why Peter doesn’t think bespoke LLMs are the differentiator right now, why workflow-fit and enterprise readiness matter more than people think, and why the smartest move for law firm leaders is simple: make sure the whole workforce is AI fluent - while avoiding the temptation to burn money trying to outbuild the vendors. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:41 Taking the temperature of the legal AI market 04:02 From pilots to platforms: how firms are buying AI 06:32 What the leading legal AI platforms actually offer 09:56 How much law firms are investing in AI 10:53 Copilot, in-house tools and the limits of DIY AI 13:08 The platform power law: Harvey, Legora and the funding gap 25:10 Anthropic, incumbents and the battle for legal infrastructure 33:55 The smartest AI decision law firm leaders can make About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    36 min
  7. DWF boss Matt Doughty on life after listing and why most firms aren’t ready for PE

    FEB 24

    DWF boss Matt Doughty on life after listing and why most firms aren’t ready for PE

    In this episode, we sit down with DWF CEO Matt Doughty to discuss what comes next for the UK’s biggest private equity-owned law firm. We discuss DWF’s positioning today: a 5,000-strong global business generating more than £500 million in revenue, split roughly 50-50 between insurance services and commercial legal work. Doughty explains why the firm is doubling down on five core market groups and why “discipline” and clarity about a firm’s “right to win” matter more than chasing the latest trend. A major theme of the conversation is, understandably, capital. Doughty revisits DWF’s 2019 IPO - the largest law firm listing at the time - and what life was really like as a public company, from market disclosures to share price scrutiny. He reflects on the challenges of telling a complex equity story to investors, the impact of macroeconomic headwinds, and what ultimately changed when private equity firm Inflexion took the business private in 2023. Now operating under PE backing, Doughty outlines why he believes private equity isn’t right for every firm, and why he doesn’t expect a “tidal wave” of investment into Big Law. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 Taking over as CEO and following Nigel Knowles 02:45 Leadership style and protecting DWF’s culture 06:32 DWF today: insurance, commercial and global scale 09:34 The five market groups driving growth 13:12 Why DWF chose to IPO in 2019 15:46 Life as a listed law firm: governance and share price pressure 24:22 Going private: the Inflexion deal and PE backing 34:21 Why private equity isn’t right for every law firm About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    38 min
  8. How law firms win the AI race: Alex Kardos-Nyheim on data, defensibility and staying power

    FEB 17

    How law firms win the AI race: Alex Kardos-Nyheim on data, defensibility and staying power

    Alex Kardos-Nyheim is the founder of SafeSign Technologies and now co-lead of AI research at Thomson Reuters. Alex built a legal-specific large language model while still a trainee at A&O Shearman, ultimately selling the company in 2024. He explains why Safe Sign focused on building the “engine” rather than the interface and how a legal LLM was able to outperform some of the biggest AI labs on legal tasks. A central thread of the conversation is how the competitive landscape in legal AI has shifted. What began as a wave of “wrapper” products around foundation models is now evolving into a deeper contest over models, data and defensibility. Alex argues that the real moat lies not in user interface features, but in training models on high-quality legal data and building robust retrieval systems that reduce hallucinations and improve reasoning. We also explore how Thomson Reuters is thinking about the full stack: combining proprietary legal data, live market intelligence and a legal-trained model into a cohesive platform.  Finally, Alex shares what he’s seeing inside law firms. Smaller firms should be using AI as a force multiplier to “punch above their weight”, while larger firms face a strategic imperative to convert their institutional know-how into machine-readable data to power their AI tools. His advice to managing partners is direct: hire data engineers, structure your data and lean into expertise.  The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/  Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 Building a legal LLM while at A&O 03:40 Engine vs wrapper: why Safe Sign focused on the model 04:41 Life after the Thomson Reuters acquisition 06:24 Inside Thomson Reuters’ “skunk works” AI team 08:42 From point solutions to platform wars in legal AI 11:49 The perfect stack: models, data and RAG 15:07 Why retrieval engines matter more than you think 18:33 Data as the moat 23:56 Can small data beat big data? 27:14 Making legal AI “market aware” 31:05 The evolution of Co-Counsel 33:57 What law firms are getting right and wrong about AI 36:50 “Hire 30 data engineers tomorrow” 38:22 Productising law firm know-how 43:10 Tips if you started a legal AI company today About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    47 min
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About

The Non-Billable Podcast takes UK legal professionals beyond the billable hour, bringing you interviews with top lawyers, law firm leaders, industry experts and legal tech innovators to uncover actionable insights on the business of law, career growth and the future of the industry. Hosted by Oliver Attinger, a former finance lawyer at a leading City law firm - now asking the questions he wished he had when he was practising. Brought to you by Non-Billable, the legal media platform for City lawyers, in-house counsel, and legal professionals.

Information

  • Creator
    Non-Billable
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    46
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Non-Billable
  • Show Website
    The Non-Billable Podcast

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