Been There Got Out Podcast

Chris & Lisa
  • 4.4 (28)
  • Self-Improvement
  • Updated Semiweekly

Chris and Lisa of BeenThereGotOut.com both survived toxic marriages with narcissistic partners and the legal and co-parenting nightmares that go hand-in-hand with all of that.If you are struggling in a high-conflict relationship, divorce, custody battle, or co-parenting hell which requires PERSONALIZED attention, let us HOLD YOUR HAND along the way, while providing EXPERT, STRATEGIC guidance based on one's years of success (representing myself in court!), coupled with the other's High Conflict Divorce Coach certification.Our podcast features interviews with lawyers, therapists, co-parenting coordinators, guardians ad litem, and other subject matter experts, as well as other content, all with one goal in mind: Let us teach you how to HELP YOURSELF!

  1. 1d ago

    The Unseen Parent: A Targeted Mom on the Undermining That Starts Before You Divorce

    "One parent becomes the good parent, and one parent becomes the bad parent." That's how Shawna Leatherman describes the moment parental alienation actually begins, and it's almost never in a courtroom. It starts small: a "no more juice" overruled at bedtime, a rule at one house that quietly doesn't apply at the other. Thirteen years into her own experience with parental alienation, Shawna, who writes and speaks as "The Unseen Parent," walks through exactly how those tiny, seemingly insignificant moments compound into a full alienation pattern, and why almost nobody sees it happening until it's too late. In this conversation, Shawna and Lisa break down the mechanics of undermining, exclusive alliance, and what psychologist Dr. Amy Baker calls "poisonous messages" - the subtle signals that tell a child their other parent is unsafe, unloving, or unavailable. You'll hear how something as small as a sigh before answering the phone, or asking "are you okay?" a little too often, can quietly convince a child that one home isn't safe. This is a practical, pattern-recognition-focused conversation for any co-parent who suspects something is happening but can't quite name it yet.    WHAT YOU'LL LEARN:  ✅ How undermining ("no, it's okay, you can have it") lays the groundwork for exclusive alliance  ✅ The difference between the "enforcer" parent and the "rescuer" parent — and why it matters  ✅ What it means to "minimize the other parent's authority," and how kids absorb it  ✅ The "Three U's" framework: how poisonous messages paint a parent as unsafe, unloving, or unavailable  ✅ Why the "are you okay?" phone call is one of the most common (and least recognized) forms of alienation  ✅ The "eye shot" rule — why body language matters even when your child can't hear you  ✅ Why most parents doing these things aren't fully aware of the damage they're causing  ✅ How to start recognizing these patterns in your own co-parenting relationship before they compound    ABOUT SHAWNA LEATHERMAN:  Shawna Leatherman is a mother, writer, and advocate who has lived through parental alienation for almost 13 years. She created "The Unseen Parent" as a resource and community for parents who feel isolated, unheard, and judged for an experience most people don't understand. She is the author of "The Unseen Parent: When Silence Hurts — Faith, Truth and Loving Through Parental Alienation," which draws on her own journal-writing as a form of therapy and offers a faith-rooted perspective on truth, forgiveness, and resilience. Shawna's work focuses on making alienation dynamics visible — not as a men-versus-women issue, but as a behavioral pattern that can happen to any parent, and one she believes needs to be discussed openly rather than in silence.    🔗 CONNECT WITH SHAWNA:  Book: "The Unseen Parent: When Silence Hurts - Faith, Truth and Loving Through Parental Alienation," available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Kindle.  Instagram, TikTok & YouTube: search "The Unseen Parent"

  2. 5d ago

    Is Your Co-Parenting Conflict Fueling Teen Addiction Risk?

    "A toxic environment is a toxic environment, whether the parents are together or they're separate." That's not a divorce coach talking. That's Dave Kopeny — a former probation officer, school counselor, and sheriff's department investigator who now works as a private investigator specializing in families whose teenagers are struggling with substance use. And what he told Lisa in this conversation is something every parent navigating a high-conflict divorce or difficult co-parenting situation needs to hear: research shows an amicable divorce is actually better for a child's mental health than staying in a toxic marriage. The problem is, most of the people in our community don't have an amicable divorce. They have a toxic divorce and a toxic co-parenting situation — and that, Dave explains, is one of the heaviest burdens a child can carry, precisely because they have no control over it. This episode goes far beyond drug facts and statistics. Dave draws a direct line between the conflict a child witnesses at home — whether inside a marriage or across two households — and their risk of turning to substances to cope with feelings they don't know how to name. He also speaks candidly to a dynamic so many BTGO parents live with every day: the co-parent who checks out entirely. Dave sees it often in his own work with families — usually a father who doesn't have day-to-day custody, is angry at his ex, and simply stops showing up. Dave's advice for the parent left holding it all is direct, practical, and free of judgment. What You'll Learn: ✅ Why research shows an amicable divorce protects kids better than a toxic intact marriage ✅ How ongoing co-parenting conflict becomes a burden kids have no ability to control  ✅ What to do when only one parent is willing to engage with a struggling teen  ✅ Why you can't have a productive conversation with your child while you're dysregulated yourself  ✅ The specific behavioral changes Dave tells parents to document before confronting a teen  ✅ Why a mother's intuition about her child is worth listening to — and what Dave tells fathers about it  ✅ How to reframe a hard conversation as "you and your child against addiction," not you against your child  ✅ Why today's marijuana is a different, far more potent substance than the drug earlier generations knew  ✅ The "four eyes vs. two eyes" problem single parents face — and who to bring in when you can't partner with your ex  ✅ How to open a non-shaming conversation with a teen you're worried about, in under two minutes About Dave Kopeny: Dave Kopeny brings a rare, full-circle perspective to the world of adolescent substance use. He grew up in a household shaped by his father's alcoholism, later lost a brother to long-term addiction and a sister-in-law to a heroin overdose — experiences that shaped both his empathy and his career. Dave spent decades working directly with high-risk youth, starting as a juvenile probation officer in California, then serving as a school counselor, returning to intensive probation work, and later investigating for a sheriff's department. Today, as a private investigator, he specializes in helping families whose children are struggling with substance use disorder find their way toward lasting sobriety. He is the author of a book on adolescent addiction and founded a free online community where parents can learn the facts about teen substance use without cost or obligation.

  3. Sep 3

    Why Men Don't Talk About Divorce Pain with Garth Haslem

    "Force demands fairness. Power prepares for reality. Force chases. Power disengages when engagement is useless." That's the framework Manalizing founder Garth Haslem uses to explain why so many marriages, divorces, and co-parenting relationships fall apart — and it's strikingly close to what we teach in our own Strategic Communication Course. In this raw, unscripted conversation, Lisa sits down with Garth to unpack the difference between force and power in relationships, why men are conditioned from childhood to stay silent about what's actually hurting them, and what happens when decades of suppressed emotion finally come out "in the wrong place, with the wrong people, at the wrong time." If you've ever wondered why your ex communicates the way they do, why the men in your life won't open up, or why your own attempts to "just talk it out" keep backfiring, this episode reframes the whole conversation. WHAT YOU'LL LEARN: ✅ The difference between force and power — and why force always backfires in high-conflict situations  ✅ Why men are taught from childhood that vulnerability is dangerous, and what that costs them (and their families)  ✅ The "trash compactor" pattern: how suppressed emotions eventually explode at the wrong time  ✅ What "divorce brain" is, how to recognize it in yourself or your ex, and why it's a form of force  ✅ How internalized criticism turns into self-hatred — and sometimes into abusive behavior  ✅ Why some men become the "ATM Dad" and how that dynamic damages marriages from the inside  ✅ A real, vulnerable account of parental alienation from a father's perspective  ✅ The structure of a Manalizing meeting: the declaration, the "one word" check-in, being heard, and being seen  ✅ Concrete examples of force vs. power language you can apply to your own co-parenting communication  ✅ Why "happy wife, happy life" can quietly become a form of coercive control when taken too far  ✅ How isolation compounds a crisis — and why having even one person who will listen changes everything ABOUT GARTH HASLEM: Garth Haslem is the founder of Manalizing, a national peer support community that meets twice monthly by Zoom to give men a structured, confidential space to be heard, seen, and known — often for the first time in their adult lives. Garth built Manalizing out of his own hard-won experience: two marriages, a divorce he navigated with no one to turn to, and a relationship with one of his three daughters that remains estranged today. He speaks openly about his own struggles with meaninglessness, force, and control, and has adapted Dr. David Hawkins' "Power vs. Force" framework into a practical, everyday tool for men navigating conflict, divorce, and fatherhood. Garth is not a therapist — he is something rarer in this space: a man willing to go first.

  4. Aug 31

    Why Rage Is a Sane Response to Legal Abuse, Not a Character Flaw

    "I would wake up every single morning, there'd be a moment when I'd forget who I was, and then I would just be furious. And it wasn't even at my ex — it was at the system allowing this to go on and on and on."   If that sounds familiar, this conversation is for you.   Lisa opens this episode admitting that rage is one of the single most common emotions she hears about from people living with legal abuse and parental alienation. So she brought in Jen Gallagher, a limited license psychologist in Michigan with over 20 years as a therapist, who now specializes in helping women work through rage using a neurobiological, brain-based approach.   This isn't a conversation about anger management. It's a conversation about why your rage might be the sanest possible response to years of injustice — and what to actually do with it so it doesn't run your life, or your health, from the inside.   Jen explains the real difference between everyday anger and deep, cumulative rage, why rage is a normal, protective emotion your brain is designed to feel (not a character flaw), and why the physical toll of suppressing it for years can show up as chronic illness, "sideways" explosions, or relentless self-criticism. If you've ever asked "when is this going to stop hurting," this episode gives you a real answer.   What You'll Learn:   ✅ The actual difference between anger and rage, and why rage runs so much deeper  ✅ Why rage is one of the brain's built-in protective systems, not a personality flaw  ✅ How to tell the difference between rage (a feeling) and violence (a behavior)  ✅ Why men and women are conditioned to express rage so differently  ✅ Why there's no "timeline" for how long you're allowed to feel furious  ✅ Why chronic legal abuse produces a completely sane, expected rage response  ✅ The physical cost of suppressing rage for years, including chronic illness  ✅ How trauma can disconnect you from rage you don't even know you're carrying  ✅ The first step to reclaiming your rage: simply naming it out loud  ✅ A simple body-awareness practice to interrupt a rage spiral in real time  ✅ What to look for in a therapist if rage is the issue you need help with  About Jen Gallagher: Jen Gallagher is a limited license psychologist (a Michigan-licensed therapist with a master's degree) with more than 20 years of clinical experience. Her practice takes a neurobiological, brain-based approach to emotional healing, and she primarily works with women in midlife who are learning to build a healthier relationship with their rage — turning it into a source of power and energy instead of shame. She describes rage as one of the most misunderstood emotions, and she's made it her mission to change that.

  5. Aug 27

    The Step-Parent's Side of Parental Alienation: a Therapist/Former GAL Speaks Out

    "One hundred percent of what was reported back to me was untrue." That's what it's like to be the step-parent inside a parental alienation campaign — standing in the middle of a custody war that started long before you arrived. In this conversation, licensed clinical social worker, former guardian ad litem, and 40-year psychotherapist Jessica Anne Pressler shares something we almost never hear on this channel: what parental alienation looks like from the step-parent's chair. Jessica spent 15 years inside the court system conducting custody evaluations, and she also lived through alienation herself as the new partner a mother turned her daughter against. Jessica's story starts with a genuinely happy first year, a proposal, and then, almost overnight, a child who wouldn't come to the house anymore. We talk through the emails that arrived hours after her wedding, comparing her to a "black widow." Jessica calls this "borrowed scenarios" — language dressed up as a child's own feelings that could never have come from an eight- or nine-year-old. We also dig into what happens to the "healthy" partner who watches someone they love get pulled away by fear of losing a child. Jessica is honest about her husband's catch-22 — caught between the family he built with her and a daughter conditioned to see any closeness with Jessica as betrayal of her mother. And she's just as honest about her own fear of abandonment, what she calls her own "traitor within," also the title of her forthcoming novel. What You'll Learn: ✅ Why children work so hard to please the alienating parent, and how "conditional love" and fear of loss drive that behavior ✅ How to recognize "borrowed scenarios" — adult language coming out of a child's mouth ✅ Why an ex refusing to allow a child into therapy is itself a red flag worth naming ✅ What "hatred by association" looks like when it spreads to a target parent's friends, hobbies, and new family ✅ How grandparents and extended family can become "flying monkeys," and why it happens ✅ Warning signs new partners often miss before marrying into a high-conflict family ✅ Why the divorce becoming legally final can trigger an ex rather than settle things down ✅ What a target parent's household needs to be for a child: calm, safe, and free of commentary about the other parent ✅ Why BTGO tells clients not to question their kids about time spent with the other parent ✅ Where a target parent's own grief and anger belong — and why it's never in front of the kids About Jessica Anne Pressler: Jessica Anne Pressler is a licensed clinical social worker with nearly 40 years of experience as a psychotherapist. For 15 years, she conducted custody and visitation evaluations within the family court system, giving her a rare, dual vantage point on parental alienation — as a professional evaluator and, later, as a step-parent who lived through it in her own marriage. She is the author of the forthcoming debut novel "The Traitor Within," following a woman named Cassandra through a cycle of toxic relationships and the internal "traitor" that keeps her abandoning herself first. Jessica has appeared on Been There Got Out before, and her story is also referenced in our book "When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You."

  6. Aug 24

    Is Your Ex Gaslighting Your Kids? A Therapist Explains What It Really Looks Like

    "That is gaslighting — because the parent isn't thinking about what the child is going through. They're just making the child question their own reality." That's how licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Pinkal Panchal describes one of the most common — and most invisible — things that happens to kids caught in a high-conflict divorce or custody battle. Not the dramatic stuff. The quiet, everyday moments: a comment here, a video call there, a "your mom isn't as good as you think" dropped into an otherwise normal afternoon. In this conversation, Pinkal joins Lisa Johnson to unpack exactly what gaslighting looks like when it's aimed at kids instead of a partner — and why so many well-meaning parents do it without ever meaning to. What You'll Learn ✅ How to recognize when a child is being fed conflicting realities between two homes ✅ Why kids describe the divorce experience as "heartbroken, dream-broken, and brain-broken" ✅ The physical and psychological symptoms Pinkal sees most often in alienated kids, including hypersomnia and eating disorders ✅ A real case example of a parent using a child to monitor an ex's dating life — and why it backfires ✅ Why permissive, rule-free homes often (temporarily) win a child's loyalty ✅ A concrete, repeatable strategy for reconnecting with a disregulated or pulling-away child ✅ Why giving your child real agency is more powerful than defending yourself ✅ The three questions Pinkal asks before recommending couples therapy after domestic violence ✅ Why Pinkal believes family therapy should happen before the legal battle, not after About Pinkal Panchal Pinkal Panchal is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist based in Newport Beach, California, where she runs a private practice serving clients from age two through seventy-five and older. Pinkal specializes in couples and family work, and she also facilitates a free, anonymous domestic violence support group where survivors can log in, share, and be heard without ever turning on a camera or revealing their name. Coming from a community where mental health carries deep stigma, Pinkal has made it her mission to bring therapy and honest conversation to people who might otherwise never ask for help. In her therapy room, she regularly works with children caught in the middle of custody battles and with the parents trying to rebuild those relationships.

  7. Aug 20

    Fake Voicemail Apps Are Fabricating Court Evidence - Here's How to Protect Yourself

    "Our Family Wizard is the single source of truth." That's how attorney and Guardian ad Litem Elle Barr describes the platform she helps educate judges and family law professionals on nationwide - and it's a line worth sitting with if you're currently fighting to be believed by a court, an evaluator, or your own attorney.    In this episode, Elle joins Lisa and Chris to pull back the curtain on OurFamilyWizard (OFW), one of the most commonly court-ordered co-parenting apps in the country. If you've ever wondered why a judge would order you onto a parenting app, whether it's really different from just texting your ex, or how its AI actually rewrites hostile messages before they're sent, this conversation answers all of it - straight from someone who sits on both sides of the process.    Elle starts by dismantling the biggest misconception she hears from parents: that a court-ordered parenting app exists to punish them. In reality, it exists to protect the child by reducing conflict and creating accountability for both parents - not just the one who "needed" it.    Every action on OurFamilyWizard is time-stamped and preserved, which is why Elle calls it a single source of truth: messages can't be quietly edited or deleted, and that permanence protects both people, not just whoever's usually blamed for starting conflict. That protection matters more given what Elle describes next: "deceitful software," a growing category of apps that let someone fabricate an entire fake text or voicemail thread and present it as real evidence. She shares a personal story involving her own children pranking her with a spoofed phone call to show just how convincing these fakes can look.    The heart of the episode is Tone Meter AI, OurFamilyWizard's built-in artificial intelligence that flags an inflammatory message in real time and offers a calmer rewrite before it's sent. Elle walks through a live example - a father about to write "don't be late as usual" - and shows exactly how the AI intercepts it. If you've worked on gray writing or the FRAC model with BTGO, this will feel like validation from an independent source: a leading family-law technology platform arrived at nearly identical communication principles.    Elle also addresses privacy directly. She explains why OFW added a blurred video background to its Calls feature, protecting a survivor's location during virtual visitation, and is direct about children's limited accounts: they see the shared calendar and journal, but not private messages between their parents.    Most useful for BTGO's community: Elle confirms OurFamilyWizard offers fee waivers not only for financial hardship, but for any survivor with a protection order, restraining order, or civil restraint - a resource many don't know exists.    The conversation closes with two scenarios many of you are living right now: what to do when your ex claims they "can't figure out" the app, and how to make a persuasive, low-conflict case for using a parenting app before you have a court order requiring it.    📋 WHAT YOU'LL LEARN:  ✅ Understand why family courts increasingly order parenting apps, and what "best interest of the child" really means in that decision  ✅ See exactly how OurFamilyWizard's Tone Meter AI rewrites a hostile message into one that is calm, clear, and child-focused  ✅ Learn why a properly used parenting app functions as a tamper-proof "single source of truth" for every co-parenting communication  ✅ Discover how fake text-message and voicemail apps are being used to fabricate evidence, and how to protect yourself from them  ✅ Find out how to apply for OurFamilyWizard's domestic violence fee waiver if cost or safety has kept you from using a parenting app  ✅ Learn what the blurred video background feature protects, and why it matters for survivor privacy during virtual visitation  ✅ Understand exactly what children can and cannot see when they have their own limited OurFamilyWizard account  ✅ Hear how a Guardian ad Litem responds when a parent claims they "can't figure out" the app  ✅ See how the shared calendar and Parenting Schedule Modification tool can eliminate entire categories of scheduling conflict    👤 ABOUT ELLE BARR:  Elle Barr is a family law attorney based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, with nearly 23 years in practice. As a court-appointed Guardian ad Litem, she has represented thousands of children and made best-interest recommendations that have shaped custody outcomes for families across her jurisdiction. Alongside her legal practice, Elle serves as OurFamilyWizard's Judicial Education Coordinator, training judges, family law attorneys, mental health professionals, parenting coordinators, divorce coaches, and certified financial planners on how co-parenting technology can reduce conflict and improve outcomes for families going through divorce or separation.

  8. Aug 17

    How to Stop Obsessive Thinking About Your Ex: A Somatic Psychologist Explains

    "Obsessive thinking is repetitive self-stimulation. It has movement in it — thought is a movement, it's an energy form." That's how somatic psychologist Annie Brook describes the loop so many of us get stuck in when life feels unsafe and unsolvable — the 3am replaying of a text from your ex, the imagined arguments you have in the shower, the same worry circling through your mind for the hundredth time.    If you're navigating high-conflict divorce, co-parenting with someone who won't cooperate, or the daily uncertainty of parental alienation, you already know this loop intimately. Chris Barry welcomes back somatic psychologist Annie Brook, Ph.D., LPC, for her second appearance on Been There Got Out, this time diving deep into why our nervous systems get hijacked by obsessive thinking, and exactly what to do about it.    Annie doesn't just explain the neuroscience, though she gets wonderfully geeky about the amygdala and hippocampus along the way. She teaches real, physical, in-the-moment tools you can use the next time your brain won't let go: an exercise to find the "center" of your head, a boundary practice she calls the hula hoop, a detective exercise for noticing exactly how you ruminate, and her signature "Blink Blink" technique for turning a stuck, painful thought back into free energy. Chris connects each tool directly back to what our community faces: court prep, hostile co-parenting calls, and the exhausting mental replay that comes with legal abuse.    What You'll Learn:    ✅ Why obsessive thinking is your brain's attempt to "motor" its way out of an unsolvable stress, not a personal failing  ✅ How a simple axis exercise helps you find the calm, centered part of your brain instead of the anxious, analytical forehead  ✅ How to build an invisible "hula hoop" boundary that protects your energy without shutting people out  ✅ How to put on a "detective hat" and identify whether your rumination shows up as pictures, words, or sounds  ✅ Why talking to your own rumination like a friend who needs help can surface what you actually need  ✅ How one client turned a court-ordered call with her abusive ex into a "bingo card" that made the calls bearable  ✅ Why staying "on the surfboard" instead of getting pulled into the emotional undertow protects your nervous system  ✅ How the "Blink Blink" technique dynamites a stuck thought and turns it back into usable energy  ✅ How the amygdala and hippocampus build a lifelong "file cabinet" of safety patterns, and why that matters for your triggers  ✅ Why nervous system regulation isn't a luxury for our community, it's a strategic necessity for court and co-parenting    About Annie Brook: Annie Brook, Ph.D., LPC, is a somatic psychologist with over four decades of experience helping people repair and regulate their nervous systems. She is the former Director of Body Psychotherapy for the Master's program in Somatic Psychology at Naropa University, and co-founded the clinic Colorado Therapies, where she has worked with families, children, gang-involved youth, and survivors of abuse. Annie holds a Ph.D. in Perinatal and Somatic Psychology and blends neuroscience, movement, and body-based practices to help clients recover from trauma and chronic stress. She teaches ongoing classes including Healing Complex Trauma and Healing Birth Trauma, trains therapists in somatic methods, and is expanding her practice to include equine therapy. This is Annie's second appearance on Been There Got Out, and Chris and Lisa consider her one of the community's most requested guests.

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4.4
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About

Chris and Lisa of BeenThereGotOut.com both survived toxic marriages with narcissistic partners and the legal and co-parenting nightmares that go hand-in-hand with all of that.If you are struggling in a high-conflict relationship, divorce, custody battle, or co-parenting hell which requires PERSONALIZED attention, let us HOLD YOUR HAND along the way, while providing EXPERT, STRATEGIC guidance based on one's years of success (representing myself in court!), coupled with the other's High Conflict Divorce Coach certification.Our podcast features interviews with lawyers, therapists, co-parenting coordinators, guardians ad litem, and other subject matter experts, as well as other content, all with one goal in mind: Let us teach you how to HELP YOURSELF!

Information

  • Creator
    Chris & Lisa
  • Years Active
    2022 - 2026
  • Episodes
    380
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 BTGO, LLC
  • Show Website
    Been There Got Out Podcast

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