Been There Got Out Podcast

Chris & Lisa

Chris and Lisa of BeenThereGotOut.com both survived toxic marriages with narcissistic partners and the legal and co-parenting nightmares that go hand-in-hand with all of that.If you are struggling in a high-conflict relationship, divorce, custody battle, or co-parenting hell which requires PERSONALIZED attention, let us HOLD YOUR HAND along the way, while providing EXPERT, STRATEGIC guidance based on one's years of success (representing myself in court!), coupled with the other's High Conflict Divorce Coach certification.Our podcast features interviews with lawyers, therapists, co-parenting coordinators, guardians ad litem, and other subject matter experts, as well as other content, all with one goal in mind: Let us teach you how to HELP YOURSELF!

  1. 2d ago

    How to Stop Obsessive Thinking About Your Ex: A Somatic Psychologist Explains

    "Obsessive thinking is repetitive self-stimulation. It has movement in it — thought is a movement, it's an energy form." That's how somatic psychologist Annie Brook describes the loop so many of us get stuck in when life feels unsafe and unsolvable — the 3am replaying of a text from your ex, the imagined arguments you have in the shower, the same worry circling through your mind for the hundredth time.    If you're navigating high-conflict divorce, co-parenting with someone who won't cooperate, or the daily uncertainty of parental alienation, you already know this loop intimately. Chris Barry welcomes back somatic psychologist Annie Brook, Ph.D., LPC, for her second appearance on Been There Got Out, this time diving deep into why our nervous systems get hijacked by obsessive thinking, and exactly what to do about it.    Annie doesn't just explain the neuroscience, though she gets wonderfully geeky about the amygdala and hippocampus along the way. She teaches real, physical, in-the-moment tools you can use the next time your brain won't let go: an exercise to find the "center" of your head, a boundary practice she calls the hula hoop, a detective exercise for noticing exactly how you ruminate, and her signature "Blink Blink" technique for turning a stuck, painful thought back into free energy. Chris connects each tool directly back to what our community faces: court prep, hostile co-parenting calls, and the exhausting mental replay that comes with legal abuse.    What You'll Learn:    ✅ Why obsessive thinking is your brain's attempt to "motor" its way out of an unsolvable stress, not a personal failing  ✅ How a simple axis exercise helps you find the calm, centered part of your brain instead of the anxious, analytical forehead  ✅ How to build an invisible "hula hoop" boundary that protects your energy without shutting people out  ✅ How to put on a "detective hat" and identify whether your rumination shows up as pictures, words, or sounds  ✅ Why talking to your own rumination like a friend who needs help can surface what you actually need  ✅ How one client turned a court-ordered call with her abusive ex into a "bingo card" that made the calls bearable  ✅ Why staying "on the surfboard" instead of getting pulled into the emotional undertow protects your nervous system  ✅ How the "Blink Blink" technique dynamites a stuck thought and turns it back into usable energy  ✅ How the amygdala and hippocampus build a lifelong "file cabinet" of safety patterns, and why that matters for your triggers  ✅ Why nervous system regulation isn't a luxury for our community, it's a strategic necessity for court and co-parenting    About Annie Brook: Annie Brook, Ph.D., LPC, is a somatic psychologist with over four decades of experience helping people repair and regulate their nervous systems. She is the former Director of Body Psychotherapy for the Master's program in Somatic Psychology at Naropa University, and co-founded the clinic Colorado Therapies, where she has worked with families, children, gang-involved youth, and survivors of abuse. Annie holds a Ph.D. in Perinatal and Somatic Psychology and blends neuroscience, movement, and body-based practices to help clients recover from trauma and chronic stress. She teaches ongoing classes including Healing Complex Trauma and Healing Birth Trauma, trains therapists in somatic methods, and is expanding her practice to include equine therapy. This is Annie's second appearance on Been There Got Out, and Chris and Lisa consider her one of the community's most requested guests.

  2. Aug 10

    Does Parental Alienation Backfire in Court? A Beverly Hills Divorce Attorney Explains

    “The court doesn’t care who was mean.” That’s not a throwaway line, according to Beverly Hills divorce attorney Nikoo Berenji, it’s one of the biggest blind spots she sees parents walk into family court with, and it can quietly sabotage an otherwise strong custody case. In this conversation, Nikoo, Senior Counsel at Berenji & Associates and a 20-year veteran of high-net-worth, high-conflict divorce litigation, breaks down exactly what judges weigh when deciding custody, and what doesn’t move the needle at all, no matter how unfair that feels. She walks through a real case where a mother spent enormous time and money building a case around her ex’s past absence as a parent, only to watch it backfire because the court only cares about what’s best for the child going forward, not who was the “better” spouse in the past. She also shares a case where a court took the rare step of giving a father six months of primary custody to reset a relationship that had been damaged by alienating behavior; proof that judges are paying closer attention to alienation than ever before. Whether you’re early in your custody case, deep into a years-long battle, or trying to figure out why your strategy isn’t working, this episode reframes what “winning” in family court actually requires. WHAT YOU’LL LEARN: ✅ Why proving your ex was a bad spouse rarely helps your custody case — and can actively hurt it ✅ The one best-interest factor that quietly decides more cases than people realize ✅ A real case where alienating behavior led a judge to remove children from their primary caretaker for six months ✅ How false or exaggerated domestic violence claims get used as a “silver bullet strategy” — and why it can backfire ✅ Whether courts are getting smarter about recognizing parental alienation tactics ✅ Why interrogating your kids after time with the other parent can be used against you ✅ The boundaries you need around discussing legal matters when kids are in the home ✅ Why a detailed, specific parenting plan prevents more conflict than any argument ever will ✅ The “therapy clause” that can eliminate one of the most common sources of post-divorce conflict ✅ Signs your child is struggling, even if they seem like they’re handling everything fine ✅ A simple daily practice Nikoo recommends to every client, no matter how skeptical they are at first ABOUT NIKOO BERENJI: Nikoo Berenji is Senior Counsel at Berenji & Associates Divorce Lawyers, a Beverly Hills family law firm marking more than two decades of practice focused on high-net-worth, high-conflict divorce and custody cases. Before family law, Nikoo built her career in corporate law and government criminal practice, graduating from UCLA and earning a full scholarship to Berkeley Law, where she also served as a federal judicial extern to the Honorable Judge S. James Otero before starting out as an associate at Latham & Watkins LLP, one of the largest law firms in the world. That combination of corporate, criminal, and family law experience shapes how she approaches the emotionally charged, financially complex cases her firm handles, many of which involve narcissistic dynamics between spouses who are highly successful in their professional lives. Nikoo is also an adjunct professor at both UCLA School of Law and USC Gould School of Law, and she and her team work with clients across the country and around the world, with a particularly heavy concentration of cases in Southern California.

  3. Aug 6

    A Family Court Insider Reveals the Custody Mistakes That Quietly Sink Good Parents

    She spent five years on the inside of the family court system as a Connecticut Family Relations Counselor — the person who meets with both parents, talks to the kids, and writes the recommendation the judge leans on. In this candid conversation, Sue Gabriele explains the quiet, well-intentioned mistakes that sink good parents before they ever reach a courtroom, and what to do instead. If you have ever walked in armed with a binder of everything your ex has ever done wrong, this episode will change how you prepare. Sue shares why "suitcases full of papers" backfire, why a clean, color-coded timeline beats a stack of journals, and how to give a busy professional the facts they can actually use in the limited time they have with you. She also pulls back the curtain on something most parents never hear said out loud: the system is built to push the "weaker link" into giving up, because a settlement means no one has to write the long report. Knowing that going in changes everything about how you hold your ground. Whether you are still deciding to leave, deep in a custody dispute, or trying to co-parent with someone impossible, Sue's insider perspective helps you stop fighting the battles that don't matter and start building the case that does. As we say at Been There Got Out, courts often don't care about the abuse you suffered the way you wish they would — they care about the present, the child, and the proof. This conversation shows you how to meet them there without losing yourself. A quick, important caveat: Sue's experience is grounded in Connecticut, and family law varies widely by state. Treat her insights as a lens for understanding how court professionals think, not as legal advice for your specific case. ABOUT BEEN THERE GOT OUT Lisa Johnson and Chris Barry are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists who help good people navigate the family court system and protect their relationships with their children. We fill the gap between what attorneys are trained to do and what therapists understand. Get our books, "Been There Got Out" and "When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You," and learn about our courses and 1:1 coaching at BeenThereGotOut.com. #HighConflictDivorce #CustodyBattle #FamilyCourt #CoParenting #CustodyEvaluation #NarcissisticAbuse #ParentalAlienation #DivorceAdvice #BeenThereGotOut

  4. Aug 3

    Why Does My Toxic Ex Get Worse After the Divorce Is Final?

    Most people believe that once the divorce is final, the chaos finally ends. With a high-conflict, narcissistic, or unpredictable co-parent, the opposite is often true. As they lose day-to-day control, they learn to control you from afar—through the kids, the money, and the legal system. In this honest, practical conversation, UK coach and psychotherapist Louize Yafai joins Lisa Johnson to explain why the abuse can ramp up after separation, and exactly what to do about it. Louize knows this from the inside. After a 16-year marriage, she survived severe financial and post-separation abuse, came close to homelessness twice, and relied on food banks while raising three daughters and litigating on her own. Then she turned her pain into power, trained as a counsellor and psychotherapist, and now helps parents navigate the same storm with their dignity intact. Together they unpack the “Friday Night Bomb”—the email or filing timed to ruin your weekend—and why peace doesn’t come from your ex changing. It comes from learning to trust yourself to handle whatever arrives. You’ll learn how to stop reacting, when not to respond at all, how to protect your legal fees and your nervous system, and why an impartial guide matters when friends and family keep telling you to “just move on.” ✅ WHAT YOU’LL LEARN ✅ Why a high-conflict ex often gets worse, not better, after the divorce is final ✅ What the “Friday Night Bomb” is—and how to stop it from ruining your time with the kids ✅ How to build a “Teflon suit” and respond from a calm, grounded place ✅ The in-the-moment “buffer” to use the second a hostile message lands ✅ Why you should not respond to every lie—and what judges actually care about ✅ How reactivity quietly drives up your legal fees ✅ Why being “coached” by AI can backfire badly in a high-conflict case ✅ How to know it’s time for support—without waiting until burnout ABOUT LOUIZE YAFAI Louize Yafai is a divorce, separation, and co-parenting coach with a degree in counselling and psychotherapy. Drawing on her own experience of financial and post-separation abuse—and years of helping men and women face unpredictable, narcissistic co-parents—she specializes in emotional regulation, boundaries, and the practical strategies that help people move through high-conflict divorce with strength and self-respect. She is a contributing author to the #1 best seller “Emotional Alchemy” and to a recent anthology curated with Olympic medalist Fatima Whitbread MBE on overcoming adversity.

  5. Jul 30

    Why 50/50 Custody Can Backfire Badly in a High-Conflict Divorce

    Everyone walks into family court assuming the “fair” answer is to split the kids right down the middle. Fifty-fifty. Equal time, equal say, problem solved. But what if that instinct toward fairness is quietly setting your children up for years of stress — and setting you up to lose the very argument you should be winning? In this conversation, Lisa sits down with veteran matrimonial attorney Gus Dimopoulos, who has spent 25 years handling complex, high-conflict divorce and custody cases in Westchester County and New York City. After his article “The Equality Trap” struck a nerve, we asked him to walk us through what he’s really seeing in courtrooms — and why the growing assumption that 50/50 is automatically best can be, in his words, disastrous in practice. Gus explains something most parents never learn until it’s too late: in New York, there is no legal presumption of shared custody. The law requires a best-interest analysis, and the question of a shared-custody presumption has come before the state legislature for 25 years without ever reaching a vote. Yet judges juggling hundreds of cases are under enormous pressure to settle custody early, and “just split it” starts to feel like the path of least resistance. Understanding that gap — between what the law actually says and what tends to happen in a crowded courtroom — changes how you prepare. We get into the practical reality nobody talks about: fifty-fifty demands a level of coordination, communication, and mutual respect that high-conflict co-parents simply don’t have. When you add modern kids’ schedules — sports, tutoring, therapy, club teams — an equal-time arrangement can turn every week into a battlefield. Gus also walks through parallel parenting and “spheres of influence” as a more realistic alternative for parents who can’t cooperate: you take this domain, I take that one, and we keep out of each other’s way so the kids aren’t caught in the crossfire. He shares his most important courtroom lesson, too: judges reward the parent who shows up as a calm, prepared problem-solver with a pragmatic list of facts, not the parent who comes in with drama and accusations. If something doesn’t work for your kids, you have to be able to show why — with logistics, work policies, train schedules, and evidence — rather than simply insisting the other parent is awful. We also talk about why putting real specifics into your parenting plan beats vague promises to “be cordial,” and why a child should never have to decide which parent to run to after scoring the game-winning goal. This one is essential listening whether you’re negotiating a parenting plan, heading into a custody hearing, or trying to understand why the “fair” outcome keeps making your life harder. As always, this isn’t legal advice for your specific case — it’s strategic education to help you walk in better prepared. 👉 Ready for a strategy that fits your situation? Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we’ll help you identify your priorities: https://beentheregotout.com ABOUT BEEN THERE GOT OUT: Lisa Johnson and Chris Barry are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists. They help good parents navigate the gap between what attorneys aren’t trained to do and what therapists don’t address — with practical, trauma-informed, actionable guidance for protecting yourself and your kids. #5050Custody #HighConflictDivorce #CustodyBattle #FamilyCourt #CoParenting #ParallelParenting #DivorceAdvice #ChildCustody

  6. Jul 27

    A DV Nonprofit CEO on What Family Court Gets Wrong About Abuse Survivors

    If you have already left an abusive relationship and you're now staring down the family court system, this conversation was made for you. Lisa Johnson of Been There Got Out sits down with Liz Ortenberger, CEO of SafeNest, the largest domestic and sexual violence nonprofit in Las Vegas, Nevada, for a frank discussion about what actually works once you're in front of a judge. Here's the hard truth Liz names out loud: the court will never understand your abuser the way you do. Judges are busy, they're drawn to whoever tells the cleanest, most linear story, and many of them quietly assume that a mother fighting for custody may be exaggerating the abuse to gain an advantage. That isn't fair - but it is the room you're walking into, and pretending otherwise helps no one. So what do you do with that? Liz lays out a survivor's playbook that lines up almost perfectly with what we coach every day. Get it into the record that your children witnessed the abuse, because a child witnessing abuse has the same chemical brain reaction as a child being abused directly. Build your own clear, linear timeline before you ever walk into the courtroom. Think like a chess player rather than a boxer - anticipate your ex's next several moves and head them off, instead of just reacting. And document, document, document: photograph injuries, keep a private journal, tell a trusted friend, and email evidence to yourself so it carries a date stamp the other side can't explain away. She also shares a statistic that every survivor deserves to know: if you were strangled or choked during the relationship, your risk of a later lethal outcome rises dramatically - and that is something you can get documented medically and entered into the court record. Throughout, Liz zooms out to the bigger picture too: the history of the movement, why our systems haven't moved the numbers in 30 years, and what it would take to actually protect the next generation. Practical, honest, and genuinely useful whether you're just starting your case or years deep into it. A SURVIVOR'S COURT PLAYBOOK - How to get a child's exposure to abuse onto the official record - and why it counts - Building the clean, linear timeline judges actually respond to - Anticipating your ex's legal moves like a chess player instead of reacting like a boxer - The custody bias many survivors run into - and how to get ahead of it - A simple, free way to date-stamp your evidence so it can't be dismissed as fabricated - The strangulation statistic that belongs in your medical records and your court file RESOURCES MENTIONED: SafeNest (Las Vegas): https://www.safenest.org Reach Liz's team: info@safenest.org Look up your ACE (Adverse Childhood Experiences) score - and take it for your child, too If you are in immediate danger, contact your local emergency services. In the U.S., the National Domestic Violence Hotline is available 24/7 at 1-800-799-7233 (SAFE). This conversation is for education and support; it is not legal or mental-health advice. When you're ready, we're here to help you build a strategy that fits your situation. #DomesticViolence #FamilyCourt #CustodyBattle #CoParenting #NarcissisticAbuse #CoerciveControl #DVAwareness #SurvivorSupport

  7. Jul 23

    Nilaja Ford: The Voice of the Child in New Jersey Custody

    New Jersey judges are now hearing from children directly in custody matters, and parents whose exes have spent years working on those children are alarmed. Nilaja Ford's counter is that the children were already in the middle of it. The revision changes who gets to hear them. Nilaja Ford co-founded Ford Brown Law with her partner Donnett Brown. Both were prosecutors for the state of New Jersey, and both specialize in domestic violence alongside family law. Nilaja handled domestic violence contempt matters on the prosecution side before moving into an exclusively matrimonial, custody, and domestic violence practice, and she has been conducting child interviews since before the statute was revised to formalize them. She and her partner also run a free legal-services clinic at a women's resource center in Newark. Everything she describes here is New Jersey practice, though she notes much of it tracks other states moving the same way. The conversation opens on hearsay, because it is where parents lose ground without understanding why. A letter from a therapist, a teacher, or a supportive friend generally cannot stand on its own at a hearing; the person who wrote it has to be available to be questioned. Nilaja walks through the exceptions she leans on, particularly business records like school attendance, and why expert reports come with the expectation that the expert can be asked how they reached their conclusions. She then explains what the revision, nicknamed children in charge, actually does. New Jersey's best-interest standard and its 14 factors are unchanged. What is clarified is the mechanism: a recorded interview with the judge, under a protective order rather than something a parent can post, with questions submitted by both sides. Age affects how much weight a child's preference carries, not whether they are heard. And the question she puts on her own list is not who do you want to live with, it is what the ideal arrangement would look like, in specifics, because the specifics are what reveal what is really going on. Nilaja and Lisa then work through the situations BTGO's clients live in. A parent asking for sole custody, and her first question, which is always why. Reporting abuse, and why the investigating body has to be the state agency rather than you. Cayden's Law, and what these changes are trying to prevent. A teenager who has already aligned with one parent, and Nilaja's uncomfortable point that acts and omissions count, that timing counts, and that a case arriving late arrives with a history already built. She also covers legal decision-making, stonewalling, and the 24-hour clause she has had written into orders so one parent cannot run out the clock on the other. As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation. 🎓 What you'll learn What hearsay is, and why the letter from your child's therapist may not come inWhich records do come in, and why school attendance is used so oftenWhat New Jersey's children-in-charge revision actually changed, and what it did notHow a child interview is conducted, who submits the questions, and who can hear itHow age affects the weight of a child's preference rather than their eligibilityWhy "I want sole custody" gets answered with a question, and what she is listening forWhy the state agency, not you, has to be the one investigating an abuse allegationActs, omissions, and timing: why a case brought late arrives with a history attached⏱️ Chapters 0:00 Intro 1:00 Nilaja's background: prosecutor, then family and domestic violence law 3:00 Hearsay, and why the therapist's letter will not come in 7:00 What the children-in-charge revision actually changed 9:00 How a child interview works, and who writes the questions 11:00 Age, weight, and New Jersey's fourteen best-interest factors 17:00 "I want sole custody." Her first question is why 19:00 Reporting abuse: the agency that investigates, and why it cannot be you 25:00 Teenagers who have already been turned against a parent 31:00 Getting to the whys behind what a child says 39:00 Legal decisions, stonewalling, and 24-hour clauses Keep going 💜 Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call 📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X 📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183 🔗 Nilaja Ford at Ford Brown Law: https://www.fordbrownlaw.com/ About Been There Got Out Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

    Nilaja Ford: The Voice of the Child in New Jersey Custody
  8. Jul 20

    Anne P. Mitchell: Spotting a False Allegation Before It Lands

    Anne P. Mitchell coined the term "co-parenting." Decades before that, she was one of the first two attorneys in the country to argue that children have a right to an ongoing relationship with their father after a separation, work she started before she even went to law school. Anne is an attorney, law professor, law dean emeritus, and legal journalist. She's the author of They're Your Kids Too, a guide for parents navigating a broken family law system, and she co-developed one of the earliest models of co-parent counseling with therapist Carol Marx. She's still licensed in California and continues to write and advocate through her Substack and her YouTube show, Fathers Are Parents Too. In this conversation, Anne walks through the pattern she learned to recognize in her own practice: a parent losing control of custody starts escalating, and a false allegation of abuse is often what she calls the "nuclear option." She lays out the concrete steps she told her clients to take before an allegation could land, and the case that pushed her to co-develop co-parent counseling, including the "cut the cake" method for getting a resistant ex to agree to a therapist. She also names what she calls the "silver bullet" strategy, where a parent files a restraining order early specifically to gain a custody advantage, and why she considers it as dangerous today as it was decades ago. Lisa and Anne also get into what to do when your own lawyer doesn't have experience with alienation or false-allegation cases, and how to push for a second opinion or a new attorney without damaging that relationship. As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation. 🎓 What you'll learn Where the term "co-parenting" actually came from, and why the framing matters for your caseThe real driver behind most high-conflict acrimony, and how to recognize it escalatingEarly warning signs that a false allegation of abuse may be comingConcrete steps to protect yourself before an allegation ever gets filedWhat co-parent counseling is, what it isn't, and why it works when little else doesThe "cut the cake" method for getting a resistant ex to agree to counselingWhy proving a false allegation can flip custody in some statesThe danger of the "silver bullet" restraining-order strategy being pitched online⏱️ Chapters 0:00 Intro 1:00 Intro 4:00 One of the first US attorneys to take up fathers' and children's rights 7:00 The case she could have won, and why she didn't 10:00 From "visitation" to two parents in two homes 13:00 False allegations, and what she told clients to do about them 19:00 Supervised time as a control tactic, and documenting everything 22:00 Restraining orders filed for custody leverage 25:00 What co-parent counseling is, and when courts order it 31:00 Pre-divorce counseling, and building a schedule around the real family 37:00 A case in progress: reunification therapy with teenagers 40:00 Finding a counselor, and how to coach your own attorney Keep going 💜 Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call 📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X 📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183 About Been There Got Out Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

    Anne P. Mitchell: Spotting a False Allegation Before It Lands
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About

Chris and Lisa of BeenThereGotOut.com both survived toxic marriages with narcissistic partners and the legal and co-parenting nightmares that go hand-in-hand with all of that.If you are struggling in a high-conflict relationship, divorce, custody battle, or co-parenting hell which requires PERSONALIZED attention, let us HOLD YOUR HAND along the way, while providing EXPERT, STRATEGIC guidance based on one's years of success (representing myself in court!), coupled with the other's High Conflict Divorce Coach certification.Our podcast features interviews with lawyers, therapists, co-parenting coordinators, guardians ad litem, and other subject matter experts, as well as other content, all with one goal in mind: Let us teach you how to HELP YOURSELF!

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