Marketing Beyond with Alan B. Hart

Alan B. Hart
  • 5.0 (180)
  • MARKETING
  • UPDATED WEEKLY

Join Alan B. Hart as he dives into conversations with the world's leading chief marketing officers and business innovators. Tune in to get inspired by the stories and experiences of marketing visionaries—and stay ahead of the curve.

  1. 23: Transforming complexity into clarity through data: Insights from Dion Smith, senior vice president of worldwide partner ecosystem at Siemens

    1D AGO

    23: Transforming complexity into clarity through data: Insights from Dion Smith, senior vice president of worldwide partner ecosystem at Siemens

    Dion Smith, senior vice president (SVP) of worldwide (WW) partner ecosystem at Siemens reveals how the 175-year-old and highly diverse organization, is transforming complexity into clarity by breaking away from historical silos with its "one tech mission." This strategic shift aims to unify their data, enabling Siemens to solve larger challenges and deliver better client results. He also highlights the strategic importance of collaboration and the use of marketing development funds (MDFs) and dual registration to foster alignment and measurable success for all sides.    Dion offers clear advice to leaders navigating their transformations: prioritize the customer journey and let data guide every major decision. Through a candid account of how his dyslexia became a professional superpower, Dion urges others to see value in different perspectives, to fail fast, stay focused on the future, and embrace how AI is freeing people from repetitive tasks to tackle higher-value strategic work. From his perspective, using AI for smarter personalization and predictive insight must always be balanced with respect for consumer trust, ensuring outreach feels supportive rather than intrusive.    In this episode, you'll learn:  How finding commonalities in complex data leads to clarity and unified strategies  Ways to connect marketing investments to measurable outcomes that drive more effective collaboration campaigns  Strategies to balance AI-driven personalization with consumer trust for ethical, impactful engagement    Key highlights:  [00:00] Introduction   [01:15] A near-death experience   [03:30] Dion's path to Siemens  [05:10] His role and the scope of the company   [06:45] The "one tech mission"  [08:00] Managing a large amount of complexity  [10:15] Lessons learned through transformation   [12:55] The role of MDFs and dual registration  [16:20] Advice for leaders driving transformation  [17:55] An experience that defines you: Embracing dyslexia   [22:30] Advice to your younger self: Delay reactions until you have the data  [24:00] A topic marketers need to learn more about: Finding clarity in complexity  [28:55] Subcultures and trends to follow: Agentic AI  [31:30] Largest opportunity and threat to marketers today: Consumer trust around AI practices    Resources mentioned:    Jeff Bezos "Why It's Always Day One" video  INSEAD Business School  Dreamforce  Hewlett-Packard (HP) Garage Origin Story    Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with Dion Smith and Siemens  Dion Smith on LinkedIn  Siemens on LinkedIn  Siemens on Instagram  Siemens on YouTube    Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    37 min
  2. 22: Agentic AI for hyper-personalization at scale: Insights from Steve Hammond, general manager and executive vice president of Agentforce Marketing at Salesforce

    3D AGO

    22: Agentic AI for hyper-personalization at scale: Insights from Steve Hammond, general manager and executive vice president of Agentforce Marketing at Salesforce

    Steve Hammond, general manager and executive vice president of Agentforce Marketing at Salesforce, sits down with host Alan Hart at Dreamforce to share his perspective on how leaders can navigate the fast pace of change in technology and marketing. Steve reflects on his journey from early entrepreneurial ventures to modernizing Salesforce's marketing technology, emphasizing how consumer expectations are shifting and how AI Agents now empower companies to unlock hyper-personalization at scale. He discusses how interconnected company data is essential to delivering more efficient, personalized experiences, and why executives should be fully invested in shaping strategies to break down barriers to innovation. Steve explains that the intersection of people and technology delivers the strongest results and shares his prediction that as AI evolves, marketers will spend less time managing technical details and more time focused on high-level strategies that empower them to create personalized customer experiences across all touchpoints.    In this episode, you'll learn:  How AI agents shift consumer expectations    Areas for organizations to address to meet evolving consumer expectations   How unified company data unlocks more personalized, efficient customer experiences    Key highlights:  [00:00] Introduction   [01:15] Finding rest on the farm   [02:45] What is Agent Force Marketing?  [03:50] Steve's path to Salesforce  [06:50] Keeping up with the pace of change  [08:55] The organizational elements needed to adapt shifting consumer expectations  [10:40] The intersection between people and technology   [14:35] The state of Salesforce marketing solutions  [18:10] Personalization at scale  [20:50] An experience that defines you: Experiences different cultures   [22:25] Advice to your younger self: Deliver on your vision  [23:30] A topic marketers need to learn more about: What is real and what is hype?  [25:00] Subcultures and trends to follow: The future of work  [26:30] Largest opportunity and threat to marketers today: Apathy    Resources mentioned:    Salesforce.com    Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with Steve Hammond and Salesforce:  Steve Hammond on X  Steve Hammond on LinkedIn  Salesforce on LinkedIn  Salesforce on Instagram  Salesforce on YouTube    Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    31 min

  3. OCT 22

    21: Elevating customer experience in sleep technology: Insights from Lisa Tan, chief marketing and strategy officer at Reverie

    How can brands use innovation to stand out and improve the customer experience?    Alan Hart sits down with Lisa Tan, chief marketing and strategy officer at Reverie, a sleep technology company, on a mission to improve lives through the power of sleep. Together, they explore how brands can leverage technology and creative strategies to improve customer experience and stand out in competitive markets.   Lisa highlights the Reverie Innovation Summit, describing how this event not only showcases emerging sleep technologies and ideas but also helps deepen relationships with key industry collaborators. The Innovation Summit plays a key role in Reverie's approach by serving as a platform for collaboration, knowledge sharing, and goal alignment. Reverie's approach to sleep technology goes beyond product innovation and focuses on transforming the customer experience. By integrating advanced sleep technology solutions, Reverie helps ensure that every customer interaction is personalized and impactful.    Lisa also explains how integrating artificial intelligence (AI) and advanced marketing tech stacks enables Reverie to understand and engage their audiences better. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes the importance of business relationships, continuous learning, and adapting to ever-evolving consumer behaviors to create lasting connections.    In this episode, you'll learn:  Creative approaches Reverie uses to enhance customer experience when working with distributors    The importance of marketers understanding their organization's tech stack    How Reverie uses an in-person summit to gather feedback and promote innovation in sleep technology    Key quote:  "As a CMO of a SMB [small and medium business], being able to understand, like really understand how all of the tech stack works and integrates is critical for success." - Lisa Tan, chief marketing and strategy officer at Reverie      Key highlights:  [00:30] Introduction     [01:25] Growing up in Los Alamos    [02:55] Lisa's path to Reverie    [05:50] Reverie's sleep technology origins    [07:55] The evolution and scope of the business     [11:35] Reverie's go-to-market strategy    [13:20] Reverie's direct-to-consumer strategy    [14:55] The role of technology in customer experience    [18:20] Why marketers must understand the tech    [19:55] Reverie Innovation Summit    [24:25] An experience that defines you: Time spent waiting and wandering    [26:20] Advice to your younger self: Don't be afraid to be a beginner    [27:10] A topic marketers need to learn more about: Human motivation and trends     [28:55] Subcultures and trends to follow: Childhood cosmetic obsessions    [32:00] Largest opportunity and threat to marketers today:  AI    Resources mentioned:    Reverie  MIT AI study    Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with Lisa Tan and Reverie:  Lisa Tan on LinkedIn  Lisa Tan on Instagram  Reverie on LinkedIn  Reverie on Instagram  Reverie on YouTube    Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    35 min
  4. 20: From BetterBriefs to better results: Insights from Matt Davies and Pieter-Paul von Weiler, co-founders at BetterBriefs

    OCT 8

    20: From BetterBriefs to better results: Insights from Matt Davies and Pieter-Paul von Weiler, co-founders at BetterBriefs

    In today's episode, Alan sits down with BetterBriefs co-founders Matt Davies and Pieter-Paul von Weiler to discuss why they think marketing briefs are the most important document in the agency-marketer relationship, how approaching briefs as contracts may influence results, and the effect that clarity in briefs has on creativity. Matt and Pieter-Paul also share insights from the BetterBriefs Project, the first-ever global study on marketing briefs, revealing a widespread disconnect between marketers and agencies that can lead to billions in wasted budgets. In addition, they share findings from the follow-on BetterIdeas Project, showing that many brands lack criteria, tools and training to evaluate ideas properly, fueling the trust gap between agencies and marketers.  Matt and Pieter-Paul have won more than 20 marketing effectiveness awards, including two Grand Effies. With decades of experience managing thousands of briefs across global markets, they bring deep expertise and practical insights on how to improve briefs and evaluate ideas more productively. Their company, BetterBriefs, trains marketers worldwide on how to brief better and realize more effective ideas.    In this episode, you'll learn:  Why poorly written briefs can waste large amounts of budget and stall creativity  Ways to write better briefs that lead to more effective ideas  Why treating marketing briefs as contracts improves agency results  Strategies that help build trust between marketers and agencies for better collaboration    Key quotes:  "The more people we get to decide on which idea is right for our business, the more we end up being that child in kindergarten, mixing all the paint together. And we all know what kind of color we end up with." - Pieter-Paul von Weiler, co-founder of BetterBriefs  "If our strategy [in a brief] is ill-defined, we're not setting agencies up for success." - Matt Davies, co-founder of BetterBriefs  "You commission an artist and let them roam free so they can do their best work. Agencies need to be guided... and they need to be informed on what they need to do and how they apply their commercial creativity." - Pieter-Paul von Weiler, co-founder of BetterBriefs  "Just because you have an opinion [on an idea] doesn't mean that that opinion is informed [or] justified." Matt Davies, co-founder of BetterBriefs    Key highlights:  [00:30] Introduction   [02:30] Why are there two guests here?  [03:20] The brutally honest collaboration origin story   [08:50] Strategies to waste less money  [11:35] The brief is a contract  [14:45] Balancing clarity with room for creativity   [17:55] Briefs versus ideas  [19:00] Tips to improve relationships between markets and agencies  [23:20] Contributing factors for poor idea assessments  [28:00] An experience that defines you: Diversity of experience and getting fired  [33:15] Advice to your younger self: Be a student of the industry and stop trying to outsmart everyone  [35:15] Where marketing science fits in  [38:15] Largest opportunity and threat to marketers today: Tighter budgets and the need to write fewer briefs while being more effective     Resources mentioned:    BetterBriefs  BetterBriefs research  2021 marketing briefs study  Apple's "1984" Super Bowl Ad  Sony Bravia's Bouncy Balls  Guinness's "Surfer"   The Effie's  The IPA Effectiveness Awards  The Ehrenberg-Bass Institute for Marketing Science  Dr. Byron Sharp  Dr. Karen Nelson-Field  Peter Field  Les Binet  Adam Morgan  System1  Jan-Benedict Steenkamp    Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with Pieter-Paul von Weiler, Matt Davies, and BetterBriefs:  Pieter-Paul von Weiler on LinkedIn  Matt Davies on LinkedIn  BetterBriefs on LinkedIn     Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    42 min

  5. SEP 24

    19: Standing out in a 'sea of sameness': Insights from Tati Lindenberg, chief brand officer at Dirt Is Good

    In today's episode, Alan wraps up our Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity content series with Tati Lindenberg, chief brand officer at Dirt Is Good. Together, they explore global brand strategy for balancing consistency with local relevance, the origin and evolution of the Dirt Is Good brand, and the brand's deliberate movement through distinct "eras."   Tati discusses the importance of identifying which parts of the brand are "sacred" and must remain unchanged, versus those elements that can be evolved and iterated to stay culturally relevant. She notes the brand's intentional move to highlight women athletes as main characters, showing its response to evolving consumer expectations. Drawing on her experiences as a mother and her life across multiple countries, Tati shares how these perspectives have shaped her approach to global brand strategy and her management of a diverse portfolio of brands across regions. As a highly awarded marketer, she offers insights into the role of industry recognition in building high-performing teams. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining brand distinctiveness while encouraging influencer authorship. Tati also reflects on the future of creativity in an artificial intelligence-driven landscape, her concerns about the growing "sea of sameness" in marketing, the dynamics of superfan culture, and the value of taking life a bit less seriously.    In this episode, you'll learn:  Ways to balance a global brand strategy with local execution  How Dirt Is Good has evolved while maintaining consistency and relevance  The impact advertising awards have on creativity and execution     Key quotes:  "We understand what trends are happening out there, what the company strategy is, and try to combine those two things to maintain the fresh brand." - Tati Lindenberg, chief brand officer at Dirt Is Good  "I'm really concerned that everybody seems to be doing the same thing... we need to keep asking ourselves, are we modern enough? Are we culturally relevant? Are we compelling enough for consumers?" Tati Lindenberg, chief brand officer at Dirt Is Good    Key highlights:  [00:30] Introduction   [01:25] From São Paulo to the United Kingdom  [03:45] Tati's path to Dirt Is Good  [07:55] The scope of the fabric cleaning business  [09:50] Balancing a global brand strategy with local execution  [12:45] The Dirt Is Good origin story   [15:20] A new way to manage brand portfolio  [17:00] Balancing consistency with fresh ideas  [20:50] In their women's sports era  [22:00] The importance of awards  [24:40] An experience that defines you: Coca-Cola Christmas  [28:10] Advice to your younger self: Take it easy  [29:35] A topic marketers need to learn more about: Availability and affordability of tools  [32:45] Subcultures and trends to follow: Superfans  [33:45] Largest threat for marketers: "The sea of sameness"    Resources mentioned:    Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity  Dirt Is Good  Arsenal Football Club    Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with Tati Lindenberg and Dirt Is Good:  Tati Lindenberg on LinkedIn  Tati Lindenberg on Instagram  Dirt Is Good on LinkedIn  Dirt Is Good on Instagram    Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    36 min
  6. 18: The secret to Klarna's AI advantage: Insights from David Sandstrom, chief marketing officer at Klarna

    SEP 17

    18: The secret to Klarna's AI advantage: Insights from David Sandstrom, chief marketing officer at Klarna

    In today's episode, we continue our Cannes Lions series as Alan and David Sandstrom, chief marketing officer at Klarna, discuss how embracing change, leveraging artificial intelligence (AI), and balancing data-driven efficiency with creativity are shaping the future of marketing and brand-building.   Klarna is a financial technology company that is well-known for its "buy now, pay later" (BNPL) options. David highlights the macroeconomic trends that he believes are contributing to the continuing growth of BNPL, while also sharing Klarna's efforts to diversify their offerings with digital banking and mobile phone plans. Innovation and experimentation are core to Klarna's culture, and can be seen in initiatives like their interactive customer hotline featuring an AI avatar of their chief executive officer. David also outlines how he and his team encourage employees to use AI internally by actively measuring AI usage, using it as a team on a daily basis, and challenging team members to complete tasks that would be impossible without it. However, despite Klarna embracing AI usage and adopting new technologies, David emphasizes the essential role of human creativity in creating resonant messaging. He also discusses his interest in "anti-trends", like long-form content, as open spaces to build brands and tell stories.    In this episode, you'll learn:  How building an AI-driven culture can boost innovation and efficiency  Why combining technology with creativity can be key to brand success  How expanding and educating beyond your core offering can drive growth    Key quotes:  "We're not doing anything new based on AI. We're only doing the things we used to do, but way more efficiently, way faster, at a way lower cost." - David Sandstrom, chief marketing officer at Klarna  "I think our investment in AI culture has been more important than our investment in AI infrastructure" - David Sandstrom, chief marketing officer at Klarna    Key highlights:  [00:30] Introduction  [01:05] What's new for Klarna  [01:50] David's career path  [03:25] The key to David's CMO longevity  [04:00] Growth of BNPL  [05:20] Extending beyond BNPL   [06:15] Moving to digital banking  [08:00] Creating a culture to embrace AI  [11:30] The impact of AI on the creative process  [13:40] An experience that defines you: Being born to a juxtaposing pair  [14:25] Advice to your younger self: Enjoy the ride  [14:55] A topic marketers need to learn more about: How to build a brand today  [16:00] Subcultures and trends to follow: Anti-trends and long-form  [17:30] Largest threat to marketers today: Becoming too data-driven     Resources mentioned:    Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity  Klarna's AI chief executive officer report     Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with David Sandstrom and Klarna:  David Sandstrom on X  David Sandstrom on LinkedIn  Klarna on X  Klarna on LinkedIn  Klarna on Instagram    Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    21 min
  7. 17: Google it: Smarter marketing with AI: Insights from Sean Downey, president of Americas & Global Partners at Google

    SEP 10

    17: Google it: Smarter marketing with AI: Insights from Sean Downey, president of Americas & Global Partners at Google

    Sean Downey is the president of Americas & Global Partners at Google, overseeing the company's expansive advertising business, including Google Search and YouTube. With a background rooted in the earliest days of digital marketing startups and leadership roles at DoubleClick and Google, Sean draws on leadership lessons learned from his father, particularly the importance of creating a workplace where everyone feels they are contributing to something greater than themselves. He emphasizes authenticity, empathy, and continuous learning as core leadership values.  As part of our Cannes Lions content series, Alan and Sean connect at the International Festival of Creativity to discuss AI's impact on marketing. Sean explains how Google integrates AI and automation into its advertising platforms to help marketers achieve better results while protecting consumer privacy. He notes that marketers today have to be more efficient than ever and highlights how AI-powered tools help them work smarter and adapt to rapidly changing consumer behaviors. Sean also stresses the importance of first-party data, privacy-safe solutions, strong change management, and a growth mindset for teams navigating technological shifts.    In this episode, you'll learn:  The ways Google balances consumer privacy with marketing performance  Why change management and a growth mindset are essential as technology evolves  Strategies Google uses to empower brands and agencies to confidently adopt and leverage AI-powered tools     Key quotes:  "Brands can get caught in the trap of thinking they know exactly who their customer is. When in reality, they're looking for people that they didn't know existed, that are incremental to their business." - Sean Downey, president of Americas & global partners at Google  "Everyone knows when they walk to the doors in my building that they contribute to something greater than that. And that powers innovation, that powers customer orientation, and most importantly, it empowers growth personally and professionally." - Sean Downey, president of Americas & global partners at Google      Key highlights:  [00:30] Introduction  [01:15] Work-life balance    [02:45] Sean's path to Google  [04:20] A North Carolina connection   [05:10] The scope of Google's advertising business   [07:15] Balancing privacy with marketing effectiveness  [09:25] Three tips for brands  [10:45] How AI is influencing Google products  [14:00] Empowering product adoption for brands and agencies   [20:20] Sean's leadership principles   [23:50] An experience that defines you: Learning from the most challenging times  [26:45] Advice to your younger self: Be honest with yourself  [27:35] A topic marketers need to learn more about: Change management  [29:10] Subcultures and trends to follow: What makes people resonate  [31:10] Largest opportunity to marketers today: The pace of ideas    Resources mentioned:    Sean Downey  Google  YouTube  Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity    Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with Sean Downey and Google  Sean Downey on LinkedIn  Google on LinkedIn  Google on Instagram  Google on YouTube      Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    34 min
  8. 16: Driving audience engagement with the magic of Disney: Insights from Andrew Messina, senior vice president at Disney Advertising

    SEP 3

    16: Driving audience engagement with the magic of Disney: Insights from Andrew Messina, senior vice president at Disney Advertising

    Andrew Messina is a Senior Vice President at Disney Advertising. He began his career on the agency side before moving into daytime sales at ABC, then advancing to a primetime senior account executive role, and ultimately rising to his current position. For the past 17 years, Andrew has led all brand advertising initiatives at Disney Advertising, including linear, programmatic, and addressable campaigns across platforms such as Disney, Disney+, Hulu, FX, and ESPN.  In today's episode, Alan and Andrew connect at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity to discuss the integration, sponsorship, and advertising opportunities Disney offers brands across its many properties. Andrew shares how live events – particularly women's sports – are shaping advertising, highlights the importance of relationship-building in media sales, and explains Disney's approach to reaching diverse audiences. He also reflects on the importance of mentorship and how AI and youth culture are influencing marketing strategies.    In this episode, you'll learn:  How rising viewership of women's sports is creating new advertising opportunities   Why cultivating trust is essential for career growth, plus actionable development tips   Disney's approach to building relationships with brands     Key quotes:  "Relationships really, really matter, and the only way some of these things are going to get done is through making sure you're connected." - Andrew Messina, senior vice president at Disney Advertising    Key highlights:  [00:30] Introduction   [01:10] A nontraditional introduction to the industry   [02:15] Andrew's path to Disney   [04:10] The scope of his role  [05:00] How consumer brands shape the sports landscape  [07:45] Some of the most valued properties for brands  [08:45] Co-creation with consumers  [10:00] Stand-out strategies for auto and retail  [11:30] Industry transformation over the years  [13:25] An experience that defines you: The opportunity to learn sales  [15:40] Advice to your younger self: Develop relationships  [16:50] A topic marketers need to learn more about: AI  [17:35] Subcultures and trends to follow: Tastes of the younger audience  [18:50] Largest threat to marketers today: Complacency     Resources mentioned:    Disney Advertising  Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity  College GameDay Built by The Home Depot  Generation AI by Matt Britton    Follow the podcast:    Listen on Apple Podcasts    Listen on Amazon Music   Listen on Audible   Listen on iHeart Radio  Listen on Spotify      Connect with Andrew Messina and Disney Advertising:  Andrew Messina on LinkedIn   Disney Advertising on LinkedIn   Disney Advertising on X  Disney Advertising on Instagram    Connect with Alan Hart and Deloitte Digital:     Alan Hart on X  Alan Hart on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on LinkedIn   Deloitte Digital on Instagram   Deloitte Digital on YouTube   Deloitte Digital on Threads

    20 min
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Join Alan B. Hart as he dives into conversations with the world's leading chief marketing officers and business innovators. Tune in to get inspired by the stories and experiences of marketing visionaries—and stay ahead of the curve.

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