Unbehaved

Meghan French Dunbar
  • 5.0 (18)
  • Business
  • Updated Weekly

Like if your funniest friend, your therapist, and a researcher who's interviewed more than 1,000 leaders about making business better for all walked into a bar…and started a podcast. Unbehaved is where overachievers go to feel less alone. Real conversations with trailblazing leaders who decided to call b******t on everything we've been taught about work, success, and life — revealing what it looks like to flourish, not just function. Hosted by Meghan French Dunbar, recovering CEO, best-selling author of "This Isn't Working," and business anthropologist who refuses to let you settle for fine, Unbehaved throws the old playbook out the window and helps you write a new one in its place. Sometimes that means a conversation with a pioneering leader who refused to follow the status quo. Sometimes it's Meghan going deep on the research, stories, and ideas the old playbook doesn't want you to hear. No matter what, this show will make you think differently about work, feel seen, and give you the permission slip to stop following rules that were never built for you. Because behaving according to business-as-usual clearly isn't working. It's now time to: Unlearn. Unhustle. Unsettle. Unmold.  It's time to Unbehave.

  1. 5d ago

    You're Not Boring — Why We're Taught Our Stories Don't Matter with Francesca Donner

    Is there a voice in your head telling you that your story isn't interesting, that your idea isn't good enough, or that everyone else is somehow doing it better? Then this is the episode you've been waiting for. You'll meet Francesca Donner, who spent two decades in the biggest newsrooms in the country — The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, editing the paper's pioneering In Her Words newsletter — watching women's stories get buried on page 50 of the paper. Two years ago, Francesa got fed up with the lack of women's stories in the news and launched her own media company, The Persistent, with zero business background. And promptly won two Webbys. In this conversation, Francesca and Unbehaved host Meghan French Dunbar unpack why so many of us have been conditioned to believe our stories don't matter. Francesca also tells the story of the "failed" mug email that became her favorite permission slip, why she says clarity only ever comes in motion, and the game-changing practice she gave herself this year for silencing the negative talk that runs in every high-achieving woman's head. WHAT WE COVER The DNA of the newsroom — why women's stories get buried, and why it happens everywhere, not just in journalism The Carol Hymowitz mentor moment that changed how Francesca reads every publication Why "until you have it pointed out, you tend not to notice it" is Francesca's foundational insight — and how it applies to every meeting you sit in The 75% stat: men are quoted as experts in news stories about three-quarters of the time The mug email: 650 of Francesca's most engaged subscribers, a 97% open rate, and zero paid conversions — and why she's glad she sent it anyway Why the New York Times shutting down In Her Words was the door that opened The Persistent Launching a company with zero business background — and why muddling through is a legitimate strategy The moment her team told her "people actually want to hear from you" — and the negative loop every high-achieving woman recognizes The editor's-note thumbprint: how Francesca found her own voice inside a publication that isn't supposed to be about her The Webbys reveal: two days of celebration if you win, two weeks of spiraling if you lose — and what to do about that imbalance Amina AlTai's "clarity comes in motion" — and why Francesca uses it as her North Star ABOUT THE GUEST Francesca Donner is the founder and editor of The Persistent. She has worked in newsrooms including The New York Times, where she was the gender director and the editor of In Her Words, and The Wall Street Journal, where she was a deputy editor. The Persistent won two Webby Awards for Independent Publisher — the People's Voice Award and the judge-selected award — in 2026. Find her at https://www.thepersistent.com/ Subscribe. Read. Share. And put your money where your values are. PULL QUOTES "We don't see our stories on the front page of XYZ newspaper, because our stories aren't told, because they're relegated to page 50 of the paper, because they're told on the second day, because they're told as an afterthought or a sidebar. That is why. We can't believe that we've got a story to tell because we're so rarely in the center of the story." — Francesca Donner "Until you have it pointed out, you tend not to notice it. Until you have pointed out the fact that men are quoted as experts in news stories about 75% of the time." — Francesca Donner "I'm so boring. Nobody wants to hear from me. I'm da da da da da da. Right? And around and around in circles." — Francesca Donner, on the voice in her head when her team asked her to start telling her story "That particular email had a 97% open rate. And do you know how many people upgraded to paid? Zero. Zero. Absolutely not one person." — Francesca Donner, on the now-legendary mug email "Everything is a stepping stone. So many things are mistakes — but mistakes are data." — Francesca Donner "If we had not won these awards — if we'd been only a finalist, or hadn't been in consideration at all — do you know how much brain space I would have given to that? I would have spent days and days thinking about all the things wrong. Instead of just saying, okay." — Francesca Donner "Give yourself some grace. Give others some grace. We are all doing our best. We're all muddling through." — Francesca Donner "Clarity comes in motion. As soon as you stop thinking and start doing, that's where the clarity comes." — Meghan French Dunbar, quoting Amina AlTai "Everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn. Everyone's story is valid and interesting. And we are so conditioned to believe that it is not — including you and me, literally storytellers." — Meghan French Dunbar CHAPTERS 00:00 — Cold open: "we're so rarely in the center of the story" 00:24 — Meghan's intro 01:46 — Career journey: from GQ to the Wall Street Journal 04:00 — Being the squeaky wheel at the WSJ in 2007–2008 05:54 — The New York Times Gender Initiative and In Her Words 08:17 — Why the Journal wasn't the curmudgeon — and the DNA of the newsroom 09:05 — Carol Hymowitz mentor moment: "until you have it pointed out, you tend not to notice it" 13:38 — Being armed with data: the pain of what's obvious to you but not to them 15:47 — "Everything you do is data" — planting the seed 17:48 — Everything is a stepping stone. Mistakes are data. 19:00 — The mug email: 650 subscribers, 97% open rate, zero paid conversions 22:39 — The double standard for women and people of color making mistakes 24:15 — Meghan on Conscious Company Magazine — and the parallel-founder exchange 25:43 — Why she launched The Persistent in 2024 28:00 — Launching a business with zero business background — the muddling-through method 31:14 — Clarity comes in motion (Amina AlTai reference) 31:57 — First two years of The Persistent: the toddler analogy 33:08 — The two Webby Awards 35:00 — The hard bit: how do you make people pay for media? 37:15 — Stepping out of the editor's shadow into the founder's spotlight 40:13 — "I'm so boring. Nobody wants to hear from me." 41:00 — The editor's-note thumbprint 42:32 — Meghan's parallel story: the book deal and hating social media 44:30 — Everyone has something to teach, everyone has something to learn 44:54 — Francesca's full-circle answer: this is why we can't believe we have a story 45:29 — The book prop moment: This Isn't Working 46:26 — Meghan asks for Francesca's permission slip 46:53 — Give yourself some grace (her permission slip) 47:30 — The Webby brain-space observation 49:56 — How to find and support The Persistent 51:17 — Unbehaved Lessons of the Day THE UNBEHAVED LESSONS OF THE DAY Your story matters. You've been conditioned to believe it doesn't. That you're not interesting, that no one wants to hear from you, or that you should just amplify everyone else. Even Francesca — a former New York Times editor with two Webbys on her shelf — still hears "I'm so boring, nobody wants to hear from me" in her head. You're not alone in that voice. But it isn't right. Your story is interesting, and it's important. So start telling it. There's often opportunity in your frustration. Pay attention to what you wish were different. That gap might just be your next thing. Francesca launched The Persistent because she was furious that women's stories were being buried on page 50 of the paper. She didn't have a business background, but she dove in anyway. Two years later, she has an award-winning media company. You don't have to know everything to get started — you can figure things out as you go. Clarity comes from taking action. You can focus-group a decision to death. You can plan the pros and cons and think about all the things that could go wrong. But clarity comes from doing. Francesca launched The Persistent before she'd figured out whether to be an LLC, how to write a contract, or how to make people pay for media. And the failed mug email gave her more clarity in five minutes than five months of theorizing would have. If you've been thinking about the thing for a while, this is your permission slip to just start. Until something's pointed out, we tend not to notice it. Things that are obvious to you might not be obvious to everyone else. Simply starting the conversation and planting the seed matters. Even if you don't see the fruit of your labor right away, it can impact others in unexpected ways — and it can grow into something that shapes the rest of your career. Give yourself some damn grace. The Persistent won two Webby Awards, and Francesca barely celebrated. But if they had lost, she said she would have spent days spiraling on everything her team did wrong. That imbalance is how so many of us are wired. We give hours of brain space to what went wrong and only seconds to what went right. Give yourself some grace. Give other people some grace. We're all doing our best. We're all muddling through — and that includes you, my friend. Pay for good quality journalism. This one's on us, listeners. Put your money where your values are. If you want more stories like the ones Francesca is telling, we need to pay people for them. RESOURCES MENTIONED People + companies referenced: Francesca Donner — founder and editor of The Persistent The Persistent — thepersistent.com Carol Hymowitz — Francesca's mentor at the Wall Street Journal In Her Words — the New York Times newsletter Francesca edited Amina AlTai — quoted on "clarity comes in motion" (see her Unbehaved episode) Harvey Weinstein story (NYT) — referenced as example of long-form investigative reporting Meghan's book: This Isn't Working (Hachette, 2025) — meghanfrenchdunbar.com/book Conscious Company Magazine — Meghan's media company (2015–2020) Webby Awards — The Persistent won two for Independent Publisher Statistics referenced: Men are quoted as expert

    You're Not Boring — Why We're Taught Our Stories Don't Matter with Francesca Donner

  2. Sep 8

    You Can Stop Apologizing Now — Refusing to Dim Your Light with Kirsten Ludwig

    Every once in a while you meet someone who is so unapologetically themselves that just being near them gives you permission to be your full self as well. Kirsten Ludwig is that person. Co-founder of the brand agency In Good Co, veteran of Ralph Lauren, American Eagle, Anthropologie, Fred Siegel, and Stella & Dot, and co-creator of the 17,000-subscriber Substack Good Thinking — Kirsten's career reads like a masterclass. But that's not why Meghan invited her on the show. She invited her because Kirsten is the kind of woman who, at a fancy CEO summit years ago, stood up and mama-beared Meghan (then five weeks pregnant and dying inside) out of a conversation after a man wouldn't stop talking. That story opens the episode — and it's the perfect setup for everything that follows. This one is about the courage to stop shrinking. Kirsten's signature framework — lean into the cringe — is the idea that the uncomfortable, courageous move almost always pays off tenfold what you were avoiding. She and Meghan get into the two-week maternity leave she still carries shame about, the friendship-based business partnership with her co-founder Chris, the "one pizza can feed" team philosophy at In Good Co, and the permission slip that all of us need to hear.  Quick heads up: Kirsten and Meghan 100% set a new Unbehaved record for cursing in this one. If that's your love language, buckle in. If it's not your vibe, no hard feelings — this one might not be your jam. WHAT WE COVER The CEO-summit cold-open story — Meghan five weeks pregnant, a man accusing her of looking bored, and Kirsten standing up to mama bear her out of the situation Lean into the cringe — Kirsten's signature framework: the uncomfortable, courageous move almost always pays off tenfold what you were avoiding Why "you can have it all and balance it all" is complete BS — and how to make the trade-off intentional instead Kirsten's arc from fashion in-house (Ralph Lauren, American Eagle, Anthro, Fred Siegel) → Stella & Dot → building an experiential agency from 30 to 230 people → founding In Good Co The Stella & Dot contrast: coming from a boys-club culture where meetings ran until 7 or 8 PM (because no one wanted to go home) into a company run by "badass women" who got the work done by 5:30 because they had families waiting The two-week maternity leave shame — Kirsten as chief creative officer taking only two weeks with her daughter, and why the regret isn't about the bond but about the example she set for everyone watching How In Good Co became a B Corp before Kirsten even knew what a B Corp was "One pizza can feed" — In Good Co's team-size philosophy The COVID pivot to a curated contractor model — and why it makes the work better The business partnership with Chris — friendship-based first, "we do the work in it," and the "beautiful soup" of talking about everything without limits How Good Thinking (the 17K-subscriber Substack) became a media platform without ever intending to Working with brands like Sex with Emily — and why the real unlock is shame → okay → empowering The Fordham "light too bright" moment — the student who told Meghan she was always afraid her light was too bright Kirsten on turning 50 and giving zero f***s — and why that's actually about leaning into your truth, not not caring The permission slip: "Ask for forgiveness, not permission. Don't even think about permission. Do the thing that lights you up." About the Guest Kirsten Ludwig is the co-founder of In Good Co, a B Corp brand agency, and the co-creator of Good Thinking, a 17K-subscriber Substack and podcast on brand, trends, and culture. A veteran of Ralph Lauren, American Eagle, Anthropologie, Fred Siegel, and Stella & Dot, she now works with brands like Sex with Emily on the conversations most people are too afraid to have. PULL QUOTES "The more that I lean into what I call the cringe — the uncomfortable moments — that is where I find the beauty. And on the other side is tenfold whatever I've experienced prior." — Kirsten Ludwig "This idea that you can have it all and balance all the things is complete b******t. Somebody's always gonna lose. So at least make that decision intentional." — Kirsten Ludwig "The shame doesn't come from that I don't feel bonded with my daughter. The shame comes from being that example. The fact that I, as chief creative officer of this agency, was an example to all of these women and men to say, this is okay." — Kirsten Ludwig on taking two weeks of maternity leave "You didn't have to be an a*****e to make money. You could be a good f*****g human and also make money. Two things can be true." — Kirsten Ludwig "We always wanted to be the size of team that one pizza can feed." — Kirsten Ludwig, on In Good Co's team philosophy "We do the work in the relationship. Something comes up, we don't let it fester. We bring it up. It's a beautiful soup of all the parts and pieces, and there isn't anything that's off limits." — Kirsten Ludwig on her partnership with co-founder Chris "Let's remove the shame — and not only remove it and make it okay, but let's make it empowering. And how do we do that, and how do you create inspiration within all that? Those are the conversations. That's the unlock." — Kirsten Ludwig "I just wanna have a conversation and talk heart to heart. I don't wanna have this b******t exterior. It's gonna be one of those conversations that you can feel something — versus like, 'well, I've accomplished this and I've done this.' Great, but tell me about you." — Kirsten Ludwig "I want people to live their best life. Have the most fun, have the most sense of freedom, do all the things. Whatever is your truth. And to show people — like, shine f*****g bright, babe." — Kirsten Ludwig "Ask for forgiveness, not permission. That's it. Don't even think about permission. Do the thing that lights you up. And if someone calls you on it, deal with it then." — Kirsten Ludwig's permission slip CHAPTERS 00:00 — Cold open: "I want people to live their best life... shine f*cking bright, babe." 00:29 — Meghan's intro: who Kirsten is, why she invited her on, and a language heads-up 02:21 — The CEO-summit story: five weeks pregnant, a man droning on, and Kirsten's mama-bear rescue 03:40 — Lean into the cringe — Kirsten's signature framework 04:55 — Motherhood, intentionality, and why "you can have it all" is b******t 06:01 — What keeps Kirsten clear on her intention: the ongoing self-evolution work 07:20 — The stories Kirsten has had to unlearn 07:38 — The Stella & Dot vs. boys-club contrast — and the two-week maternity leave shame 10:48 — How In Good Co started (and how her prior agency imploded after a successful sale) 12:41 — Finding the courage to leave the C-suite treadmill 16:25 — Reimagining success around autonomy and freedom 19:05 — Building the company: B Corp from inception, the "one pizza can feed" team, the COVID pivot 23:59 — The business partnership with Chris — friendship first, "we do the work in it" 26:43 — Fashion, body image, and refusing to shame yourself for wanting to look and feel your best 29:41 — Working with Sex with Emily and other counterculture brands: from shame → okay → empowering 32:22 — Leaning into the cringe + naming the shame both require vulnerability 34:18 — The Fordham "light too bright" moment 36:36 — The likability conversation: hitting 50 and giving zero f***s 38:19 — What Kirsten wishes we'd talked about: the personal and work journey are one 40:15 — Meghan's four-year-old daughter, sensitivity as a superpower, and reparenting yourself 41:56 — The permission slip: ask for forgiveness, not permission 42:28 — Where to find Kirsten (Substack, LinkedIn) 42:56 — Meghan's four Unbehaved Lessons of the Day RESOURCES MENTIONED People + companies referenced: Kirsten Ludwig — co-founder of In Good Co, a B Corp brand agency Stella & Dot — the "badass women" company that hired Kirsten at five months pregnant and gave her three months of maternity leave Sex with Emily / Emily Morse — one of the brands Kirsten works with; a masterclass in shame → empowerment B Corp — the certification In Good Co has held since inception CONNECT WITH KIRSTEN In Good Co Substack: Good Thinking — 17,000+ subscribers on brand, trends, and culture Podcast: Good Thinking (via the Substack) LinkedIn: Kirsten Ludwig CONNECT WITH MEGHAN & UNBEHAVED Book: This Isn't Working — available wherever you buy books Website: meghanfrenchdunbar.com Substack: subscribe for weekly insights + tools for building a better relationship with work Podcast: Unbehaved — new episodes weekly wherever you get podcasts FULL TRANSCRIPT [Editor's note: Lightly cleaned for readability. Preserves original voice + delivery.]   Kirsten Ludwig (00:00): I want people to live their best life. Have the most fun, have the most sense of freedom, do all the things. Whatever is your truth. Everybody's truth is different. The life I lead is too crazy or whatever for a lot of people — they don't want to lead that life. Cool. But whatever their version is, I want to give people permission or inspiration or whatever it might be to lead their best version of that. And I think that's exactly what you do. And to show people — like, shine f*****g bright, babe.   Meghan French Dunbar (00:29): Hello, lovely human. My name is Meghan French Dunbar, and welcome to Unbehaved. You just heard from the force of nature that is Kirsten Ludwig. Kirsten's the co-founder of In Good Co — a B Corp certified brand agency — and her professional background is pretty much a laundry list of the who's who in the fashion world: Ralph Lauren, Anthropologie, Stella & Dot, and many more.   But her impressive career isn't why I invited her on the show today. I wanted to talk to Kirsten because she's someone I've always looked up to. She and I met a number of y

    You Can Stop Apologizing Now — Refusing to Dim Your Light with Kirsten Ludwig

  3. Aug 25

    Trapped in a Life Built Around Others' Approval? Here’s the Way Out — with Al & Leanne Elliott

    There's a job you've thought about leaving. A sabbatical you'd take if you weren't worried about being judged for it. Something you want to write, or start, or say out loud — and the thing stopping you isn't whether you want to do it. It's what other people will think. In this episode of Unbehaved, you’ll hear from Al and Leanne Elliott — the married couple behind the UK's #1 management podcast, Truth, Lies and Work — who’ve built one of the most enviable-looking lives you'll come across. Digital nomads for six years. Working together. Making a living doing what they love. All because they refuse to build a life based on what other people think.  At 19, Al Elliott sat across from a deputy headmaster who told him that if he worked hard for twenty years, he could have that man's job and earn £28,000. Al's internal response: f*ck this. He walked out of teaching and never went back. Leanne spent from 28 to 35 waiting for the maternal feeling everyone promised was coming. It never arrived. It took her mother saying "that's okay" for her to believe it might be. Between them, Al and Leanne have refused nearly every script they were handed — about careers, children, where to live, and whether you should ever go into business with your spouse.  In this conversation, they walk through exactly what it looks like to stop making decisions based on what other people think — and start listening to what YOU want instead. Content note: this episode includes a story about a suicide-in-progress call, at around the six-minute mark. Resources at the bottom. What We Cover: The paper airplane that said "help" — how they met on an overnight Samaritans shift (03:53) Working with your spouse without wrecking either one (15:03) The story of success you were handed as a child (24:01) Money is a river: unlearning the family rule that you don't discuss it (27:41) Waiting for a feeling that never came (28:23) Nothing is wasted — relational beats transactional (36:13) What's genuinely different about work in 2026: AI fear, DEI backlash, and "pick a side" (41:30) The hardest truth Al ever heard: "You're not that important." (48:15) The permission slip — and how to work out whose voice is calling your idea stupid (51:29) About The Guests: Al & Leanne Elliott host Truth, Lies & Work, part of the HubSpot Podcast Network. Leanne is a business psychologist; Al is a serial entrepreneur. truthliesandwork.com — and find Leanne on LinkedIn, where she answers every single comment. PULL QUOTES "Stop behaving in the way you think other people expect. Stop trying to make decisions based on what you think other people think is right or is the norm. Make decisions based on what YOU want and what works for you and your values." — Leanne Elliott "If you work as hard as you seem to be working right now, then in about 20 years time, you can be sitting in my seat and you can be earning upwards of 28,000 pounds a year. And I sat there and I went, f**k this." — Al Elliott "The way we talk on microphone is the way we talk in real life. That's kind of what people say when they meet us — you're just exactly the same as you sound on the pod. Yeah. Because we enjoy doing it." — Al Elliott "Nothing is wasted. Even when you find yourself in a situation doing work on something you're not really getting paid for or not very much for and it's taking more of your time. Our mantra is always nothing is wasted, because we're learning something. We're making a connection here." — Leanne Elliott "The voice that tells you you're wrong and it's a stupid idea — try and identify whose voice that is. Because if that's your parents, that's your grandparents, that's a friend — that's probably the person who's holding you back the most." — Al Elliott "The fact is you've got to fall in love with the medium. If you hate it, it's like writing blogs — you're not going to stick at it. You absolutely have to love it." — Al Elliott "If they've got my phone number, then they should really be talking to me. If they've not — I don't know them, whatever. And I think that's kind of how when you're creating content and putting stuff out into the world, it needs to be about, I don't know you, whatever." — Al Elliott (on trolls) "It's almost like a bank account. If I've paid into somebody's bank account with goodwill and helping them over the years, and they certainly need to make a withdrawal, they're much more likely to be there to help me. That's how the world should work." — Leanne Elliott "Just because you're a manager doesn't mean you're that important. You're not that important. You're disposable if you don't do a good job. He was right. Brutal, but right." — Al Elliott (hardest truth he's had to accept) CHAPTERS:  00:00 Cold open: "F**k this" 00:35 Welcome + episode setup 02:55 The interview begins: how did you build this life? 03:55 How they met on an overnight shift at the Samaritans 04:51 The suicide-in-progress call 07:20 The 6am callback that changed everything 08:44 Why they were volunteering in the first place 10:13 Fast-forward: marriage, moving to Spain, Brexit, becoming digital nomads 12:12 Expert host vs. unexpert host: how their paths converged 14:37 Working with your spouse: the boundaries + osmosis framework 17:34 The honest truth about building a podcast from nothing 22:00 The 1% better principle 23:10 Childhood stories of success: what you were handed 26:00 Al's "f**k this" £28K teaching moment 27:30 Stories they had to let go of (money for Al, having kids for Leanne) 30:50 Currently in Bosnia — permission to live wherever 33:00 A typical week + how the podcast provides livelihood 35:14 Transactional vs. relational: being of service 36:13 The "nothing is wasted" mantra + the Nico story 41:30 Patterns in 2026: AI fear, DEI pushback, polarization 45:20 How to deal with trolls 47:54 Rapid fire: hardest truth 48:53 Rapid fire: biggest lie 50:43 Most outdated work norm 51:14 The permission slip to unbehave 52:32 Where to find Al and Leanne 53:14 Meghan's Unbehaved Lessons of the Day   RESOURCES MENTIONED Truth, Lies and Work — Al and Leanne's podcast: truthliesandwork.com Oblong — Al and Leanne's consultancy: https://oblonghq.com The Samaritans — UK crisis listening service where Al and Leanne met: samaritans.org Content note referenced in the episode: If you or someone you know is in crisis, please reach out to the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline in the US (call or text 988), or the Samaritans in the UK at 116 123. CONNECT WITH AL & LEANNE: Podcast: Truth, Lies and Work Leanne on LinkedIn Al on LinkedIn   CONNECT WITH MEGHAN + UNBEHAVED: Website Substack: Unbehaved Book: This Isn't Working LinkedIn: @meghanfrenchdunbar Instagram: @meghanfrenchdunbar   FULL TRANSCRIPT (CLEANED) Lightly edited for readability. Filler words, false starts, and transcription artifacts removed. Al's, Leanne's, and Meghan's voices preserved throughout. [Cold Open — Al] I remember distinctly, I was sitting in front of the deputy headmaster. I must have been what, 19, on my first teaching practice? And the deputy master says, "If you work as hard as you seem to be working right now, then in about 20 years time, you can be sitting in my seat and you can be earning upwards of 28,000 pounds a year." And I sat there and I went — f**k this.   Meghan: (laughing) Hard pass.   Al: There's gotta be a better life than that. [Meghan — Welcome]   Hello there, lovely human, and welcome to Unbehaved. I'm Meghan French Dunbar, and that was Al Elliott — one half of the extraordinary duo I get to talk to today. The other half is his wife, Leanne.   One of the reasons I'm so excited about this episode is that Al and Leanne are going to walk us through what it actually looks like to stop making decisions based on what other people think.   And I don't know about you, but this is something that shows up in so many aspects of my life. That tension where you know you want to do something, but then you start questioning yourself because you're worried about what other people might think. Maybe it's the job you want to leave, but you don't quite know what your colleagues are gonna say. Maybe it's the sabbatical you'd like to take, but you're worried you'll be judged for taking time off. Or the Substack or the podcast or the content that you want to start putting out there, but you're worried about what other people are going to think about what you have to say.   Whatever it is, I hear this from so many people — they aren't living the life they actually want because of other people's opinions.   Today, Al and Leanne are gonna show us what it looks like to listen to what YOU want instead of what others want for you. And for them, it's resulted in the two of them leading a pretty epic life. Together, they co-host the UK's #1 management podcast, Truth, Lies, and Work, which they record and produce from wherever they want. In the last decade, they've lived in different European countries pretty much every few months.   So today I got to turn the tables on them and ask them the questions. And our conversation surfaced one of the most touching meet-cute stories I've ever heard that I totally wasn't expecting. It also brought up refreshingly honest wisdom for anyone who's trying to build something from the ground up — whether it's a small business, an art studio, anything in between. We also talk about one potentially overlooked practice they lean on (and I do as well) that has become foundational to their success.   One quick heads up before we dive in: this episode opens with a story about a suicide-in-progress call from Al and Leanne's early days as volunteers at the Samaritans, a crisis listening service in the UK. If that's not something you're up for today, feel free to skip ahead — it's at about the six-minute mark in th

  4. Aug 11

    How to Stop Playing Small and Start Owning the Room with Deb Liu

    Deb Liu — former CEO of Ancestry, creator of Facebook Marketplace, and a household name in the tech industry — spent decades being underestimated in every room she walked into. In this episode of Unbehaved, she shares exactly how she unlearned the "play small, stay safe" survival strategy that shaped her early career, and the deliberate practices she used to become a leader who now owns the room. If you've ever been talked over in a meeting, struggled to speak up for yourself, or watched someone else get credit for your idea, this episode is for you. WHAT WE COVER: Why "playing small" starts as a survival strategy but stops working at a certain point How anyone can learn to own a room, regardless of their personality What happened when a room of women in tech decided to "make it awkward" and stop being ignored  The Secret Bias no one talks about — and how it silences the smartest people in the room Why self-advocacy is actually an act of generosity (not self-promotion) The Supreme Court research on female justices being interrupted — and how they fixed it Why Deb went public about her breast cancer diagnosis (and the 100K-reaction LinkedIn post that followed) The origin of "The Blank Name Tag Club" and Deb's Reset / Reflect / Reimagine framework for career transitions The permission slip: rewriting the story before it rewrites you ABOUT THE GUEST Deb Liu is the author of Take Back Your Power and is currently writing her next book about navigating career and life transitions. Her companion Substack piece for this episode dropped today at debliu.substack.com. ----more---- PULL QUOTES "I made myself smaller and smaller and quieter and quieter over the years. I just thought — if I just play along, it's going to be okay." "You outgrow the systems of coping that you have and then they actually work against you." "I said, well, I'm an introvert, I can't do that. Right? So you're playing against yourself. Instead, I said — I'm going to treat this like a skill, like learning pickleball or playing piano or learning a foreign language." "The secret bias no one talks about is that those who speak the fastest, speak the most, and show up are given disproportionate influence." "If we never make it awkward, if we never raise our hand and say actually — then we're doing a disservice to everyone who comes after. Because no one updates their priors." "It's not for you. It's not self-advocacy, it's not self-promotion. It is paying it forward to the next generation of people who would otherwise be in the same situation." "Every woman in America has a 13% lifetime chance of getting diagnosed with breast cancer. That is one in eight. Catching it a year or two early can make the difference between a very complicated outcome and a very good outcome." "I never let myself sit in the silence. And that's where you find who you really are — in that uncomfortable space." "Often the stories we tell ourselves are the wrong version. And then that affects our behavior in a negative way. I give you the permission to rewrite the story." CHAPTERS 00:00 — Cold open: "I made myself smaller and smaller and quieter and quieter" 00:30 — Welcome + episode setup 02:15 — Growing up in South Carolina: the only Chinese family in town 04:00 — What Deb tells her own children about belonging 04:35 — When "playing small" starts holding you back 06:30 — Extroversion as a skill: the pickleball framework 08:45 — The Secret Bias No One Talks About 09:30 — Money 2020: the "Make It Awkward" pact 11:15 — When the CEO across the table doesn't realize you're the buyer 12:45 — Supreme Court research on female justices being interrupted 15:10 — Why staying silent is a disservice to the next woman in the room 16:00 — Reframing self-advocacy as an act of generosity 18:10 — Coming from betterment, not anger 19:50 — The moment Deb was mistaken for the assistant — as CEO of Ancestry 21:15 — The breast cancer diagnosis and why Deb chose to share it 23:40 — "Drawing the Cancer Card" — 100K LinkedIn reactions and the ripple effect 25:20 — Leaving Ancestry while going through cancer treatment 27:15 — The origin of the Blank Name Tag Club 28:45 — Why the unmooring is the whole point 30:35 — Sitting in the silence: why you don't need to sprint to the next thing 32:00 — Writing a mother-daughter column with her 17-year-old 34:00 — The moving story: kids and grief and why they wouldn't pack 35:45 — What matters most to Deb right now 37:20 — The permission slip: rewrite the story before it rewrites you 39:20 — Where to find Deb    RESOURCES MENTIONED Deb's TEDx talk, Let's Make It Awkward Deb's article, Drawing the Cancer Card Deb's book, Take Back Your Power: 10 New Rules for Women at Work Companion Substack pieces : Deb's essay: The Blank Name Tag Club Meghan's essay: Why Your Title's The Least Interesting Thing About You    CONNECT WITH MEGHAN + UNBEHAVED Subscribe to the Unbehaved Substack: meghanfrenchdunbar.substack.com Meghan on LinkedIn: Meghan French Dunbar Meghan on Instagram: @meghanfrenchdunbar The Book — This Isn't Working: meghanfrenchdunbar.com/book FULL TRANSCRIPT (CLEANED) Lightly edited for readability. Filler words, false starts, and transcription artifacts removed. Deb's and Meghan's voices preserved throughout. Meghan French Dunbar: All right, Deb. So you and I met in September through TEDx San Diego — we were in the same speaker cohort. You gave an incredible talk that I still think about to this day about owning your awkward. Let's Make It Awkward. We're going to get into that. But the thing I want to start with is the origin story — growing up in the South and the ways you learned how to be safe and protect yourself by staying small. Can you take us there? Help us understand where the story came from. Deborah Liu: Yeah. I was born in New York City. My parents were immigrants — they'd come to the US for college, met here, and we lived in Queens. And then, inexplicably, when I was six years old, my parents decided to move to South Carolina. I later found out it was because my dad was being discriminated against at work, and his friend and colleague had moved south and worked for the government and said, I can get you a job with the US government. It turned out they were the only Indian family and we were the only Chinese family in the town we moved to. You can only imagine the shock of growing up in a place like that. It was just being so different. I kept playing small because I thought, if people just don't see me, maybe they'll stop making comments. People would walk up to my parents in the street or the mall and say, go back to where you came from. It was a very different place. At the time it was maybe half a percent Asian — less than one percent. We were like aliens that had landed on a different planet. I just remember feeling like I need to hide, and no one would comment. So I made myself smaller and smaller and quieter and quieter over the years. I just thought — if I just play along, it's going to be okay. Meghan: And was that behavior something you just picked up, or was that what you were told to do by your parents? Deb: My parents said, just ignore them. They're just ignorant. They lived an American dream that was really hard for me to reconcile. They came from Hong Kong, where it was very crowded, and here they had a big house with a big yard. For them, the price of the American dream was just not belonging — and that was okay. I really struggled with that because I was like, I was born in America. I'm just as American as any of these kids. Why am I seen as a foreigner? The forever outsider, the forever foreigner — it was such a piece of who I was growing up. And it was so hard for me to reconcile. So they just said, ignore them, just don't pay attention. And I tried to do that. But it's not like people are silent because you're quieter. I realized that strategy was just not working — but I didn't know what else to do. Meghan: I'm curious about your own children — we were just talking about them. It's a very different day and age, but I assume they've experienced some level of exclusion, whether based on marginalized identity or something else. What do you say to them versus what your parents told you? Deb: What's really interesting is I live in the Bay Area now, and my kids go to a high school that's 40% Asian, 40% white, and 20% everybody else. So they live a very different life. My daughter, we were at a couple of events recently, and she said, I experienced what you experienced growing up for the first time — where I felt like I didn't belong. She's 17. She graduated from high school yesterday. She said, I never experienced this once in my entire life. Now I understand what you're talking about. And I said, it took you 17 years to experience this. So in a lot of ways it's a blessing that she didn't have to go through it — but it's super interesting because when we explain what it felt like, my husband and I both grew up in the South (he's Chinese too, from North Carolina). Being the forever foreigner was just a part of who we were. And my kids say, we've never felt this before. It's just so interesting to see how demographics change over time. They can't even imagine when I describe what it was like growing up. Meghan: So this stay-small, play-it-safe, protect-yourself, put-your-head-down strategy — I understand how scary it would be as a child in that situation. And as you're growing in your career, at some point it turns from a way to stay safe to something that I'm assuming held you back, despite your incredible success. How did that conditioning inform your career, and how did it hold you back? Deb: Well, things work until they don't work. You outgrow the systems of coping that you have and then they actually work against you. The quot

  5. Jul 28

    When Therapy Has Stalled: How Psilocybin Can Help You Break Through with Mikki Vogt (Part 2)

    A few weeks ago, I laid down on a futon in Denver, drank orange juice with three grams of psilocybin in it, and spent eight hours next to a licensed therapist named Mikki Vogt. I recently told you what happened for me during that session. This week, you get to meet the woman who held the container. Mikki Vogt is a licensed counselor, co-founder of one of Colorado's first licensed psilocybin healing centers, and one of the people who co-wrote the safety screening protocols for psilocybin-assisted therapy now used across Colorado and Oregon. Before she was any of that, she spent years working in prisons and community mental health before deciding to start facilitating psilocybin sessions as a harm reduction provider. Before it was legal. When it could have cost her everything. This is Mikki's first podcast interview. She's spent years training other facilitators and building the regulatory framework other states are now adopting. But this is the first time she's sat down for a long-form public conversation about how psilocybin therapy actually works, why it seems to break through what traditional therapy can't, and what it really takes to make this field safe. In this conversation, we get into why she made the call to do this work before it was legal, why traditional talk therapy hits a ceiling that psychedelic-assisted therapy seems to break through, the story of a young man who'd had daily seizures for 17 years and what happened during his psilocybin session with her, what a bad trip actually is versus a challenging one, and why the model of legal psilocybin therapy that we're building in this country — the model Mikki helped write — needs public support to survive.  If you listened to Part 1 and wondered how any of this is actually possible, this is the episode that answers that question. And if you haven't heard Part 1 and are just curious about the current landscape and real benefits of psilocybin-assisted therapy, you'll walk away with everything you need to understand what's happening in this field right now.   WHAT YOU'LL WALK AWAY WITH Why Mikki risked her professional license to facilitate psilocybin sessions before it was legal Why traditional talk therapy hits a ceiling that psychedelic-assisted therapy seems to break through — the rational vs. felt-sense framework The story of a young man who'd had daily seizures for 17 years and what happened during his psilocybin session with Mikki What a bad trip actually is versus a challenging experience The three tiers of adverse events every legitimate facilitator should be trained on How Colorado built the first regulated psilocybin therapy framework — and what New Mexico and Oregon are doing differently The specific questions to ask a potential facilitator before you commit Who psilocybin therapy is NOT for Why the model needs public support to survive — and how you can help ABOUT THE GUEST Mikki Vogt is a licensed professional counselor, licensed addictions counselor, and natural medicine facilitator with a master's degree in forensic psychology. She's the co-founder and clinical director of one of Colorado's first licensed psilocybin healing centers, has facilitated 300-500 psilocybin sessions over the last five years, and co-authored the standardized safety screening protocols now used across Colorado and adopted in Oregon. She trains other facilitators in psilocybin-assisted therapy through her work with the Psychedelic Public Policy Partnership. She lives in Colorado with her husband and two children. You can find more about her and her work at neuroalchemycenter.com. PULL QUOTES "I called my mom and I said, Mom, I just had the most professionally and personally affirming experience of my entire life. I feel like I have finally found where I'm supposed to be, what I was born to do, what my life's purpose and calling is." "If regulatory agencies don't like the way that I'm doing it, then maybe I don't need the regulatory agency. And that was kind of — I don't know if that was stupid or courageous, or maybe a little bit of both." "I know I'm smart. I know I'm likable. I know I'm worthy of taking up space. People tell them to me every day. And there is a part of me that knows that rationally to be true. But the belief system that I have developed in experiential, repetitive, time-based learning throughout my life is I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable, everybody will abandon me, and I will never be somebody's first pick." "Psychedelics are unique in that they seem to be this bridge between what I rationally know insightfully up in my brain and what I at a gut instinct, gut level, feel to be true." "You can't take the medicine out of the ecosystem and expect it to do the same thing. We need to remember that what we're trying to do is rejoin the ecosystem — we're shifting, not the medicine." "It's as if I can see an entity or a form trying to push the seizure toward my body." (from the seizure patient during his psilocybin session)  "Any time I go to journey, I'm nervous as f**k. Like, my gosh. And that's great — because that's our nervous system doing its job. It's a reminder that I am functioning the way I'm supposed to function." "We are self-healing systems — biologically, physiologically, emotionally, soulfully, spiritually. That's how we were created. And we live in a self-healing ecosystem, our world."  "If we want this to be safe, we need to make it familiar. What makes things unsafe is a lack of familiarity." "It's the mushrooms. Like, you find the person you're connected with who you can trust to keep you safe. But the awareness gained, the insight, the self-love and acceptance — that's your inner healer and the mushrooms. That has nothing to do with me."   CHAPTERS 00:00 — Cold open: "the most professionally and personally affirming experience of my life" 00:28 — Welcome + episode setup 02:13 — Mikki's origin story: her first facilitated session 03:59 — From forensic psychology to prisons and community mental health 08:30 — Discovering psychedelic research and starting private practice 10:12 — Facilitating psilocybin sessions before it was legal 13:12 — Why she risked her practice to do this work 15:21 — Why traditional therapy hits a ceiling: rational vs. felt-sense 19:16 — What the research is showing 22:00 — Why we need to rejoin the ecosystem 23:57 — The seizure story: 17 years of daily seizures 28:52 — The second session and integration 31:00 — Bridging the sacred and the clinical 33:38 — Meghan's fear of vulnerability 35:00 — Mikki's response: "I'm nervous as f**k" 38:04 — Prep and integration protocol 40:58 — Adverse events and the three tiers of safety 43:00 — Bad trip vs. challenging experience 44:43 — How Colorado built the psilocybin program 49:15 — Mikki's role in co-writing the safety protocols 49:34 — Why psilocybin isn't more accessible 53:17 — Business leaders and the mental health thesis 54:44 — How to help others step into this work 57:00 — The funding critique 59:37 — How people can support the work   RESOURCES MENTIONED Colorado Proposition 122 (2022) — the framework that made regulated psilocybin therapy legal in Colorado Oregon Measure 109 (2020) — the first state to launch a legal psilocybin program Senate Bill 290 (Colorado Natural Medicine Health Act) — the legislation Mikki helped shape Healing Advocacy Fund — the primary organization advocating for psilocybin therapy access Psychedelic Public Policy Partnership (PPPP) — the volunteer coalition Mikki works with Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics — psychedelics.berkeley.edu/law David Anka — referenced for his framing of psilocybin as reconnection with the soul Companion episode: Part 1 — Why I'm a Mom Who Does Drugs: My Legal Psilocybin Therapy Journey — Meghan's solo episode telling her own story from the inside Written versions on Meghan's Substack: Part 1 — To Shroom or Not to Shroom? Part 2 — Why I'm a Mom Who Does Drugs   CONNECT WITH MEGHAN + UNBEHAVED Subscribe to the Unbehaved Substack: meghanfrenchdunbar.substack.com Meghan on LinkedIn: Meghan French Dunbar Meghan on Instagram: @meghanfrenchdunbar The Book — This Isn't Working: meghanfrenchdunbar.com/book   FULL TRANSCRIPT Lightly cleaned for readability. Filler words, false starts, and transcription artifacts removed. Mikki's and Meghan's voices preserved throughout. [Cold Open — Mikki] The first time I ever did a facilitated session for somebody — at the end of the session, when she was gone, I'm packing my stuff. I get in the car, and tears just started streaming down my face. And I called my mom and I said, Mom, I just had the most professionally and personally affirming experience of my entire life. I feel like I have finally found where I'm supposed to be, what I was born to do, what my life's purpose and calling is.   [Meghan — Welcome] Welcome to Unbehaved. I'm Meghan French Dunbar, and you just heard from the incredible Mikki Vogt. And if you listened to Part 1 of the series last week — yes, this is that Mikki. If you haven't had a chance to listen to the previous episode yet, Mikki is the facilitator who did my psilocybin-assisted therapy session that I detail in Part 1. But Mikki's story is so much bigger than my experience with her.  Mikki is a licensed counselor and entrepreneur, co-founder of one of Colorado's first licensed psilocybin healing centers, and one of the people who literally co-wrote the safety screening protocols used in Colorado for psilocybin-assisted therapy that have now been adopted in Oregon as well. Before she was any of that, she spent years working in prisons, then in community mental health, before deciding to start facilitating psilocybin sessions as a harm reduction provider. But that was before it was even legal — when it could have cost her everything.  In th

  6. Jul 21

    Why I'm a Mom Who Does Drugs — My Legal Psilocybin Therapy Journey (Part 1)

    A few months ago, I laid down on a futon in Denver, drank a glass of orange juice with three grams of psilocybin in it, and spent the entire day tripping balls next to a licensed therapist who took notes for eight hours. I did it legally. In Colorado. With medical supervision. And it did more for my mental health in one day than six years of therapy, antidepressants, ADHD medication, and every self-help book I've ever read had done combined. This is the episode I've been quietly wanting to make for months. In this solo episode of Unbehaved, I share my full experience with psilocybin-assisted therapy — what led me there, the current legal landscape, the research on its effectiveness, and what genuinely shifted for me and my husband afterward. We cover why psilocybin became illegal in the first place (spoiler: it wasn't the science), how Colorado and Oregon are running ahead of federal law, who this is NOT for, the specific insecurity I couldn't therapy my way out of, the car manual analogy that changed how I think about myself, and why healing yourself is leadership work. The old playbook of mental health goes like this: talk therapy for years, add an SSRI, hope something moves. That playbook has helped a lot of people — and I'm not knocking it. But I'm a case study for what happens when the old playbook is all you have and it stops being enough. The new playbook says the mind isn't the whole system, your body carries what your mind can't process, and root-cause healing is possible on a timeline that isn't decades. Psilocybin is one tool in that new playbook. Not the only one — but it's the one that finally worked for me. Part 2 of this series will be a full conversation with Mikki Vogt, my psilocybin therapist and one of the people who co-wrote Colorado's safety protocols. Coming next week. WHAT WE COVER A clear-eyed understanding of the current legal landscape for psilocybin therapy in the U.S. — Colorado, Oregon, New Mexico, the trigger law states, and what's likely to happen at the federal level The real history of why psilocybin became illegal in the first place (Nixon, John Ehrlichman, and the fact that the science was actually promising when it got shut down) The research showing psilocybin's effectiveness for depression, addiction, PTSD, and end-of-life anxiety — including data from Johns Hopkins, NYU, and Compass Pathways A responsible-messenger breakdown of who psilocybin therapy is NOT for and how to vet a legitimate facilitator The specific insecurity Meghan couldn't therapy her way out of — and the moment during her session that finally broke it The car manual analogy that reframes how you think about yourself and your ADHD or neurodivergence What her husband's psilocybin session did for his anxiety (still gone, five months later) Why the old playbook of mental health (therapy + SSRIs + hope) isn't enough for millions of people — and what the new playbook is starting to look like Why healing yourself is leadership work, parenting work, and community work — all at once  PULL QUOTES "I laid down on a futon, drank a cup of orange juice filled with a bunch of magic mushrooms, and then spent the entire day just tripping balls with a licensed therapist named Mikki sitting right next to me taking notes the entire time." "It wasn't because scientists had discovered that these substances were dangerous. Actually, the exact opposite was happening. Research effectively shut down for 40 years as a result of this — not because the science was bad, but because the politics were." "The mind isn't actually the whole system. Our bodies carry things that the mind can't process. Our nervous system is running the show oftentimes more than our conscious brain is." "I always have this little voice that says, is this okay? … And at some point it transitioned from is this okay to say? to you are okay."  "We are given a user manual that is not the one that works for our f*****g car." "For the first time in my life, I experienced what it felt like to just feel happy as I am. And I don't know if any of the people that I have in my life ever have. I don't know if any of us do." "Healing yourself in this way. It is leadership work. It is parenting work. It is community work. It is friend work. It helps us be better in relationships — which is really what so much of life is built on."  "I find that unbehaving — that pushing back on that status quo narrative about what we, quote, should do — that is where the real magic actually happens. It's where the transformation happens. It's where the healing happens."   CHAPTERS 00:00 — Cold open: the futon, the orange juice, the mushrooms 01:15 — Why this episode exists 03:40 — Meeting my neighbor Avi + Colorado's Prop 122 05:20 — The current legal landscape across states 07:15 — Why psilocybin became illegal (Nixon, Ehrlichman, and the war on drugs) 09:40 — How research restarted: FDA breakthrough designation, state laws, bipartisan support 12:00 — Watching Michael Pollan's How to Change Your Mind  14:20 — What the research actually shows (Johns Hopkins, NYU, Compass Pathways) 17:00 — Responsible messenger: who psilocybin therapy is NOT for 20:15 — Root cause healing vs. changing your mind 22:00 — The social judgment I had to work through 25:30 — My husband Scott's psilocybin session 30:00 — Deciding to do it myself + prep with Mikki 34:00 — Day of: the healing center, the orange juice, the ayahuasca callback 38:00 — The journey: "Is this okay?" → "You are okay" 43:00 — The anger release + "F**k you, Mikki" 46:00 — The car manual analogy 49:30 — Integration: parenting, marriage, and the birthday reframe 55:00 — The Glastonbury retreat and authentic leadership 58:00 — Why unbehaving is where the good stuff happens   RESOURCES MENTIONED Michael Pollan's How to Change Your Mind — book + Netflix docuseries Colorado Proposition 122 (2022) — the framework that made Meghan's session legal Oregon Measure 109 (2020) — the first state to legalize supervised psilocybin therapy Compass Pathways Phase 3 psilocybin trial (COMP360) — the trial that could lead to FDA approval as early as 2027 Roland Griffiths / Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research — the researcher most responsible for the modern psilocybin research renaissance John Ehrlichman's admission about the war on drugs — Dan Baum, Harper's Magazine, April 2016 ("Legalize It All") Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics — psychedelics.berkeley.edu/law The healing center — founded by Mikki Vogt, Vince, and Cindi in Denver Part 2 of this podcast series — a full conversation with Mikki, coming soon Written companions: Substack Part 1 — To Shroom or Not to Shroom? Substack Part 2 — Why I'm a Mom Who Does Drugs   CONNECT WITH MEGHAN + UNBEHAVED Subscribe to the Unbehaved Substack: meghanfrenchdunbar.substack.com Meghan on LinkedIn: Meghan French Dunbar Meghan on Instagram: @meghanfrenchdunbar The Book — This Isn't Working: meghanfrenchdunbar.com/book   FULL TRANSCRIPT Lightly cleaned for readability. Filler words, false starts, and transcription artifacts removed. Meghan's voice and phrasing preserved throughout. Alright, my friends. A couple of months ago, I did something absolutely wild. I laid down on a futon, drank a cup of orange juice filled with a bunch of magic mushrooms, and then spent the entire day just tripping balls with a licensed therapist named Mikki sitting right next to me taking notes the entire time. I laughed. I cried. At one point, I may or may not have lost the ability to use my legs and stand up to get to the bathroom. And I had one of the most transformational experiences of my entire life. I was doing an entirely legal psilocybin-assisted therapy session. And that's what we're going to talk about today: the emerging world of psilocybin-assisted therapy, including the legal landscape, the history, the research on its profound benefits. And I'm going to talk about why I did it personally and what some of the impacts were for both me and my husband, who also did a session.  Welcome to Unbehaved. My name is Meghan French Dunbar, and I am so thrilled that you are here — especially for this episode, because this one feels really important to me. Why? Well, the more that we heal ourselves and do the inner work that's necessary to let go of some of those harmful stories that we carry around every single day, the better we can show up in the world. For ourselves, and also for others. For our friends and family, for our workplaces, as leaders in our communities. The way that we show up matters — and the way that we feel about ourselves, and our ability to let go of these rampant insecurities that drive so much of our behavior, is actually really important to the way that we show up every day. And at least in my experience, and based on loads of contemporary research, psilocybin just might be one of the best tools we have right now to help people truly heal — to get over those internal barriers that are holding people back from being the best version of themselves.  I mean, on my end: I have been in therapy for six years. I'm on antidepressants. I was diagnosed with ADHD, and I'm on medication for that. I've read every single book on the inner journey. I've interviewed mental health experts. And I wrote an entire damn book, This Isn't Working, all about how high achievers can actually thrive. And yet, there was still something missing for me. I had plateaued in my own healing journey, and I was still carrying around deeply held insecurities that no matter how much work I did, I just couldn't let go of — until I did the psilocybin-assisted therapy.  So if you're listening and searching for something new that might help you get to the next level when it comes to your own inner work, or are interested i

  7. Jun 30

    Stop Trying to Achieve Your Way to Happiness with Shirin Eskandani

    Most people think the cure for "not feeling enough" is to achieve more. To work harder, climb higher, and one day arrive at the version of success that finally proves you belong. Shirin Eskandani spent her whole life chasing that version. She trained at one of the most competitive music programs in North America. She built the career most opera singers spend their entire lives hoping for. And then she got the call she'd been dreaming of since she was eight years old — the Metropolitan Opera. Carmen. Her dream role, her dream opera house, exactly the contract she'd imagined. The moment she hung up the phone, the only thought in her mind was: you're not good enough for this. You don't deserve this. That moment cracked open everything. In this episode, Shirin shares the year-and-a-half of inner work that followed — the therapy, the coaching, the realization that nothing external was ever going to heal the wound she'd been outsourcing. And how, after she finally sang at the Met and enjoyed every moment of it, she realized she didn't want to be a singer anymore. Today she's a coach who built one of the few decolonized coaching certifications in the field. We talk about perfectionism as a coping mechanism (not a virtue), the two-year test that's saved Meghan from at least three career decisions she would have regretted, what real courage actually looks like (hint: it's the email, not the leap), joy as a discipline rather than a feeling, and the line that may be the headline of the entire episode — our dreams are colonized. This is a conversation for anyone who's ever achieved something they worked their whole life for and then quietly wondered why it didn't fix the thing they thought it would fix. What You'll Walk Away With Why perfectionism is a coping mechanism, not a virtue — and how to start naming it The two-year test: the single question Shirin asks clients (and herself) that surfaces clarity faster than any other tool The "courage iceberg" reframe — why the courage that actually changes your life almost never looks like the big leap How "sitting with a question" literally changes your brain chemistry, and why you don't need the answer to begin Why joy is a discipline (and the magnolia-bloom story that will stay with you) What "decolonized coaching" actually means — and why your dreams may be more colonized than you realize A permission slip you can carry with you for the rest of your life  About The Guest Shirin Eskandani is a coach, former opera singer, and the founder of Wholehearted Coaching and the Wholehearted Certification — a decolonized life coaching certification program now in its fifth cohort. She trained at the Manhattan School of Music, performed at the Metropolitan Opera, and walked away from her singing career to build a coaching practice rooted in mindfulness, somatics, and the work of dismantling oppressive systems within and around us. She lives and works at the intersection of inner work and structural awareness. Pull Quotes "I'd always imagined that if I ever got to work at the Met, I would finally realize I was good enough. And the only thought in my mind was: you're not good enough for this. You don't deserve this." "Nothing outside of me was ever going to heal that wound." "My greatest achievement isn't singing at the Met. It was singing at the Met and enjoying every part of the process." "Courage isn't the big monumental shift — it's emailing the person, looking at the website, journaling the idea. The tip of the courage iceberg is the public moment. Everything underneath is what actually got you there." "Just sitting with a question starts to change the neuroplasticity of your brain. You don't need the answer. The question itself is doing the work." "Our dreams are colonized. We're dreaming within a box of possibility shaped by what people have told us is possible for people like us." "Joy is what we need to sustain ourselves through times like these. And we are the exact folks who tend not to prioritize joy — because we're too busy writing our congressperson to look at the magnolia bloom. Yes, AND look at the bloom. Because that is what's going to sustain you to keep writing." "The permission to not care what people think. That's it. This is your life." Chapters 00:31 — Welcome + Shirin's story 01:22 — Immigrating from Iran, belonging, and the perfectionism trap 04:31 — First opera, the dream of singing at the Met 05:51 — Manhattan School of Music and doubling down 07:30 — The Met phone call ("you're not good enough for this") 09:30 — A year and a half of inner work 11:00 — Singing at the Met and enjoying every moment of it 11:31 — Realizing she didn't want to be a singer anymore 13:51 — Where the perfectionism stories actually come from 17:21 — Mindset work, somatics, and the books that shifted everything 21:15 — The two-year test and the courage iceberg 26:54 — Micro-courage and the power of sitting with a question 28:14 — Joy as a discipline (and the magnolia bloom) 31:22 — Building a decolonized coaching certification 36:41 — How to bring this work to clients who aren't ready for the language 39:37 — Our dreams are colonized 41:59 — The permission slip 42:48 — Where to find Shirin   Connect With Shirin Wholehearted Coaching (Shirin's personal practice): wholehearted-coaching.com Wholehearted Certification (the decolonized coaching certification): wholeheartedcertification.com Shirin on Instagram: @wholeheartedcoaching Connect With Meghan & Unbehaved Subscribe to the Unbehaved Substack: meghanfrenchdunbar.substack.com Meghan on LinkedIn: Meghan French Dunbar Meghan on Instagram: @meghanfrenchdunbar The Book — This Isn't Working: meghanfrenchdunbar.com/book TEDx — Why Success Isn't Making You Happy & How to Fix It: Watch on YouTube   FULL TRANSCRIPT  Lightly edited for readability — verbal tics, false starts, and cross-talk artifacts removed. Substance preserved. Meghan French Dunbar: We had the chance to meet at a dinner and I heard the briefest bit of your story and was immediately like, my gosh, I want to know more. Now is my moment. Can we hear a little about your journey? How did you get to where you are today — perhaps with the lens of the ways you've been told to behave throughout your life, and the stories that's brought up for you? Shirin Eskandani: My goodness. First, thank you so much for having me. I'm so thrilled to be having this conversation with you and to meet your community. Yeah — there's been a lot of unruly behavior when I look at my history, and I foresee a lot more of it in the future. Let's start at the beginning. My family immigrated from Iran to Canada when I was four years old. We moved to Vancouver, to a part of the city that was predominantly white. For me, being one of a handful of children of color in my neighborhood was a really formative experience — and I know we usually use "formative" in a positive way, but it really did form a lot of the ideas and beliefs I had about myself. I think a lot of folks can identify with what I'm about to share. I felt like I didn't have a sense of belonging. I couldn't see myself in a lot of spaces. What I discovered as a young girl was that when I was well-behaved, when I was excellent at what I did, when I was as perfect as I could possibly be — that was when I was seen. So this narrative shaped so much of my early life: as long as I am the best, as long as I am trying my hardest, as long as I am being perfect, I will belong, I will have value, I am worthy. Which sounds like a nightmare. But at the time, it was working. What's really tough about perfectionism, about being a hard worker, about being your quote-unquote "best" — these are coping mechanisms. But what we generally call them is values. They're incredibly celebrated in our society. So it's a negative cycle. One of the spaces in which I actually did feel like I belonged when I was young — without having to be perfect, without having to work super hard — was when I was on stage, singing. In first grade I was singing with other kids and a teacher said, wait, this girl's got some pipes on her, and told my mom. I come from a really musical family — my grandmother and great-grandmother were famous singers in Iran who were very unbehaved in what they were doing. So when this teacher told my parents, they put me in choirs. They allowed me to express myself this way. It really was where I felt most me. I don't remember exactly when, but I saw my first opera and I was like, that is what I'm going to do. I am going to be an opera singer. I am going to move to New York. I am going to sing at the Met. I put that into the universe at the age of eight. As I got older, I kept getting better as a singer. But at the same time, those qualities of perfectionism and overworking were creeping into my singing. I got accepted into a really great school in Canada for my undergrad and was a big fish in a little pond. For my masters, I decided I was going to apply to the top five music schools in the US and Canada. I got accepted to the Manhattan School of Music. I thought, this is it. It's happening. I'm moving to New York. I'm going to be singing at the Met in no time. And I arrived in New York and realized there was nothing special about me. Everyone at my school was talented. Everyone was hardworking. Some of them weren't even hardworking and they were still amazing at what they did. The whole identity I'd built started to crumble underneath me. I didn't have the wisdom to say hey, do some internal work and unpack some of this. This was 20 years ago. I was young. The answer, in my mind, was to double down on the hustle — double down on working hard, double down on being perfect, double down on being the best. And that did work for a while. I graduated and was one of the few in my class working right away. I was singing at

  8. Jun 16

    The Workplace Trust Playbook: How to Stop Tolerating the B.S. at Work with Minda Harts

    We spend more time at work than we do with our families. So why do we tolerate things from our employers — broken trust, withholding information, being told everything's fine when it clearly isn't — that we'd never tolerate from a partner? In this episode of Unbehaved, we sit down with bestselling author Minda Harts, bestselling author ofTalk to Me Nice and The Memo, to ask why workplace trust is so often broken, why we accept it, and — most importantly — what to actually do about it. If you're a leader trying to build a team people want to stay on, or someone navigating a workplace that doesn't feel safe, this episode reframes one of the most under-talked-about elements of work into the actual business imperative it's always been. What We Cover A new framework — the Seven Trust Languages — for understanding what trust actually means to you and the people you work with The data that proves trust isn't a "nice to have" but a measurable business advantage (74% less anxiety, 24% higher productivity, $344 billion lost to turnover every year) Three trust-breakers to stop doing immediately (micromanaging, unnecessary CCs, AI-generated emails) A reframe of people-pleasing as something that erodes — not protects — your trustworthiness The smallest, most effective trust-building move you can make this week (hint: acknowledgment over feedback) A new definition of success that has nothing to do with money or title About The Guest Minda Harts is the bestselling author of The Memo and Talk to Me Nice, a TEDx speaker, and a workplace equity advocate whose work has been featured in Harvard Business Review, Time, and Forbes. She's the founder of The Memo LLC and one of the most influential voices in workplace culture today — and a self-described former member of the Church of Rumination. Talk to Me Nice is available wherever books are sold. Find her at MindaHarts.com and on LinkedIn. Pull Quotes "If you expect trust in your romantic and platonics, then you should expect that at a place you're going to spend 90,000 hours of your life at." — Minda Harts "Trust could be there at nine and be gone by nine-oh-three." — Minda Harts "It's not selfish for me to tell you what I need. It's selfless." — Minda Harts  "Humans are the ones making these decisions. We are the ones opting in." — Minda Harts "As a woman, I've benefited from so many women that I will never know their names. So many people that fought for pay equity. So many people that fought for voting. I may never know who they were — but I know I'm a beneficiary of that courage." — Minda Harts "Someone will be a beneficiary of my courage. And so I keep shaking the tables. Because I know that if I don't, then somebody doesn't get what they need later down the line." — Minda Harts "Success is peace." — Minda Harts Chapters 02:15 — Why we tolerate broken trust at work (and never would from a partner) 05:10 — Why employees blame themselves when trust breaks down 07:03 — Self-advocacy in real time: Minda's story of saying no 11:59 — Why people-pleasing erodes YOUR trustworthiness 13:21 — The 74% less anxious stat + naming what you need 16:03 — Withholding the truth is a form of dishonesty 19:56 — The Seven Trust Languages: where managers should start 23:50 — The business case for trust: $344B and 24% more productive 27:24 — Top trust breakers: micromanaging, weaponized CCs, ChatGPT emails 29:58 — Are we outsourcing our humanity to AI? 35:32 — Soul success: "Who is benefiting from my courage?" 38:39 — Why Minda defines success as peace  Connect with Meghan & Unbehaved Book: This Isn't Working Substack: meghanfrenchdunbar.substack.com Instagram: @meghanfrenchdunbar LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meghanfrenchdunbar    FULL TRANSCRIPT Cleaned for clarity. Filler words and audio artifacts removed; conversational cadence preserved. Speaker labels and timestamps as recorded. Meghan French Dunbar (02:15) All right, Minda, you and I have something in common that I don't think you know about — because I've never told you about it. Cheating ex-boyfriends. Both of us legit surprising our boyfriends and coming home to find them with other women. Mine was Jimi. Yours was Scott — which is hilarious because I'm married to a Scott, and you talked about "not being a Scott in the workplace" and I was like, that's hysterical. But the thing that I found really interesting about your book — and an insight that came up for me — was, I think we bifurcate our concepts of personal and professional. And as a part of that, there are things that we aren't willing to tolerate in our personal relationships that for some reason we tolerate in our professional ones. And your thesis of this entire book is that one of the primary things is we tolerate broken trust. Both of us come home to our cheating boyfriends, they're gone. Broken trust, signed, sealed, delivered, we are over. And in the workplace, we're willing to tolerate — and we've normalized — somewhat emotionally abusive relationships built on broken trust in many of the contemporary workplaces. A lot of that, of course, is coming down to: we have livelihoods, we have to put a roof over our heads, and it's really hard to change. So — what are the main consequences (mental health, physical health, whatever it might be) that you've seen of people staying in low-trust environments for too long? Minda Harts (03:41) Where do we begin… Meghan French Dunbar (03:42) I know. And — go. Minda Harts (03:45) Well, I think this is something really important, because I had this aha moment on the way to the bathroom, like a few years ago during COVID, and I'm like — trust issues, right? Like you said, we normalize them at work but we don't tolerate it outside of work to some degree. And I thought to myself: if people are saying bring your authentic self to work, trust is the same, right? I should have the same bar for trust in my personal and professional lives. And also too — it's not enough to do a trust fall at work and then go back to work and let somebody tell you lies, give you lip service — because you're not going to be able to do your best work. And I want people to realize that if you expect trust in your romantic and platonics, then you should expect that at a place you're going to spend 90,000 hours of your life at. Because you're not going to be productive, you're not going to do your best work. And if you're a company, you're not going to have good retention if people don't trust you. And trust isn't necessarily I tell you all the things you want to hear — it's also telling you when I don't have the answers, or, yeah, you do hear the sirens and I'm not sure why, but you're not stupid and you hear them, right? I'm not going to pretend they're not happening. That's the piece of the puzzle I want people to normalize — saying it's okay to talk about when we have these breakdowns. Because let's get it back on the tracks. Meghan French Dunbar (05:10) Yeah. I'm curious as well about — at least my experience of the broken trust in my personal relationship was, I started questioning myself. I took a bit of a hit — not a bit, a large hit — to my sense of self-worth and questioning what I did wrong. And I'm curious how that manifests with employees and people who are working at really low-trust environments. How much do you see people blaming themselves, or taking on this guilt or shame or concern themselves? Minda Harts (05:42) Yeah, I think we do that. And I talk about that in the book — what does trust look like to you? Because we don't typically ask ourselves: okay, what are the behaviors? What are the attributes or the characteristics where trust means something to me? It may mean something different to somebody else, but what's important to me? And people would tell me, "I don't trust my manager," or "I don't trust my colleague," or "I don't trust HR." And what they were really saying was that there was this expectation that they had of someone else that they may not be aware of. And I say: okay, well — once you identify what it is you need to do your best work or to be most productive, what would it look like to advocate for yourself? You're good enough to deserve humanity, dignity, and respect in every space you enter. So what does it look like to have that conversation? Because I think sometimes things get lost in translation. I don't think anyone shows up to work, Meghan, and says, "How can I erode trust with Minda today?" I hope they don't do that. But it happens — because of this communication crisis. I think we just have to normalize letting people know what good looks like to us. And some of us need to be reminded of that — and be told, you should be able to tell someone when they've fallen short in a way that still enhances trust instead of erodes it. Meghan French Dunbar (07:03) Speaking of self-advocacy — I'm like, I don't even know if we've actually talked about this. You and I are in an authors group together, so we get to talk occasionally, but we don't do a lot of one-on-ones. So I asked you to be a speaker at my event in January of 2020 — the World Changing Women's Summit. The Memo had just come out. Everyone was talking about you. I was like, Yes, we're going to get Minda. And we were designing the flow of the event down to the last minute, because we really wanted to have a conversation about the different experiences that white women and women of color were having in workplaces — in the context of a 200-person women-only gathering. It was the first time we'd done it. So we were kind of all over the place. It meant that as you were looking for answers on what this speaking engagement was going to look like — every time we came back to you, we had a different idea or concept. We were just all over the place. And at some point, you so gracefully were l

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18 Ratings

About

Like if your funniest friend, your therapist, and a researcher who's interviewed more than 1,000 leaders about making business better for all walked into a bar…and started a podcast. Unbehaved is where overachievers go to feel less alone. Real conversations with trailblazing leaders who decided to call b******t on everything we've been taught about work, success, and life — revealing what it looks like to flourish, not just function. Hosted by Meghan French Dunbar, recovering CEO, best-selling author of "This Isn't Working," and business anthropologist who refuses to let you settle for fine, Unbehaved throws the old playbook out the window and helps you write a new one in its place. Sometimes that means a conversation with a pioneering leader who refused to follow the status quo. Sometimes it's Meghan going deep on the research, stories, and ideas the old playbook doesn't want you to hear. No matter what, this show will make you think differently about work, feel seen, and give you the permission slip to stop following rules that were never built for you. Because behaving according to business-as-usual clearly isn't working. It's now time to: Unlearn. Unhustle. Unsettle. Unmold.  It's time to Unbehave.

Information

  • Creator
    Meghan French Dunbar
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    22
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2025 All rights reserved.
  • Show Website
    Unbehaved

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