Liminal Living

Dr. Thomas J Rundel

Welcome to the Liminal Living Podcast, where we dive deep into the realm of liminal spaces—those transitional phases where uncertainty is our companion. I'm your host and curator of conversations, Dr. Tom Rundel, and it's my pleasure to serve as your guide through these uncharted territories. With a doctoral background in spirituality and leadership from Portland Seminary, my research has centered on the spirituality found in the narratives of liminality in the Bible, but I have expanded my research to include other faith traditions and cognitive science. Since our launch in 2023, we've been dedicated to exploring the nuances of dark nights and deconstructions, but our journey expanded to include insights from a diverse array of modern-day thinkers and artists. Through a blend of stories, practices, and perspectives, we provide valuable guidance for fellow travelers navigating their own liminal spaces. So, join us as we embark on this journey and embrace the uncertainty in order to uncover the hidden wisdom that lies within the liminal spaces of life.

  1. 151: Tom Rundel: The Political Tyranny of Herod the Great

    5D AGO

    151: Tom Rundel: The Political Tyranny of Herod the Great

    summaryThis conversation explores the unique perspectives of the Gospels, particularly focusing on the historical context of the Hebrew people, the rise and rule of Herod the Great, and the implications of Jesus' birth in relation to Herod's tyranny. It delves into the narrative parallels between Moses and Jesus, the significance of lamentation as a form of resistance, and the overarching theme of power dynamics in biblical history. The discussion culminates in reflections on authenticity and the nature of silence in the face of oppression. takeaways Different Gospels target different audiences with unique perspectives.Herod the Great's rule was marked by violence and political maneuvering.The historical context of the Hebrew people is crucial to understanding the Gospels.Herod's fear of losing power led to the slaughter of innocent children.The narrative aligns Jesus with Moses, framing him as a new leader.God communicates through dreams, bypassing traditional power structures.Lamentation is a vital form of resistance against oppression.Herod's death symbolizes the triumph of Jesus' life and message.Matthew's account seeks to correct the narrative surrounding Herod.Silence can lead to authenticity and self-discovery. SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    38 min
  2. 150: Tom Rundel: Love is Not Sentiment

    12/24/2025

    150: Tom Rundel: Love is Not Sentiment

    This reflection explores love as a disruptive, risky, and compassionate force revealed in the Advent story of Joseph and Mary. Rather than portraying love as perfection or rule-following, it shows how imperfect love—choosing mercy over fear and presence over withdrawal—is enough to bring God into the world. Joseph’s decision to stay, despite uncertainty and social risk, reframes righteousness as compassion and justice as mercy, inviting listeners to see love as embodied courage in liminal, in-between spaces. Chapter BreakdownLiminal Space and Advent Love Life is lived in “in-between” spaces where transformation and possibility emerge; Advent highlights love within this liminality. The Disruption of the Virgin Birth God breaks patriarchal and monarchical expectations by entering the world quietly, without coercion or male control. Joseph’s Imperfect Love Joseph follows the law yet chooses mercy, redefining righteousness as compassion rather than strict rule-keeping. Love Resists Sanctioned Violence Love stands against violence even when that violence is justified by religion or law. God Interrupts Closed Systems Through dreams and divine invitation, God opens new possibilities beyond fear-driven decisions. Love Must Be Embodied Love is not an idea or doctrine but something lived out through risky, faithful action. Risky Fidelity Over Safe Withdrawal Joseph chooses to stay and grow through love rather than escape discomfort. Reflection and Practice Listeners are invited into self-examination and imaginative prayer to embody love in their own lives. Key TakeawaysLove often arrives as disruption, not certainty Imperfect love is still enough to bring God into the world Righteousness is compassion, not mere rule-following Justice and mercy are inseparable Love resists fear-driven withdrawal God opens new possibilities when systems feel closed Love grows when fear is faced rather than avoided Staying present can be a holy, transformative act SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    16 min
  3. 149: Tom Rundel: Peace is Not the Absence of Chaos

    12/17/2025

    149: Tom Rundel: Peace is Not the Absence of Chaos

    In this episode, Dr. Tom Rundel explores the themes of Advent, focusing on peace as a central concept. He reflects on personal experiences of chaos and stress, particularly during a planned power outage, and contrasts these with moments of genuine peace found in community service. The discussion delves into the nature of peace, emphasizing that it is not merely the absence of chaos but a powerful force that can disrupt unjust systems. The episode concludes with a reflection on expectations and how they can blind us to the peace that exists in our lives. takeaways Advent is a time for reflection on hope, joy, and peace.Peace is not just tranquility; it is a deeper state of being.Experiencing chaos can lead to a greater understanding of peace.Expectations can blind us to the peace present in our lives.True peace can disrupt unjust systems and promote liberation.Peace exists in every moment, regardless of circumstances.Breath meditation can help tap into inner peace.Community service can be a source of genuine peace.Peace is a generous contribution to the good of all.The world is not saved through force but by a change of consciousness. SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    31 min
  4. 148: Tom Rundel: Joy is Not a Mood

    12/10/2025

    148: Tom Rundel: Joy is Not a Mood

    He contrasts joy with happiness, emphasizing that joy is a deeper, more resilient state that can coexist with sorrow and is not dependent on circumstances. The discussion also delves into the historical context of apartheid in South Africa and how Tutu's joyful spirit served as a powerful form of resistance against oppression. The conversation concludes with an invitation to meditate on joy and its significance in our lives. takeaways Advent is a preparation for the arrival of God into our lives.Joy is not an emotion but a resilient state of being.Happiness can be tied to brain chemicals like dopamine, but joy transcends that.Desmond Tutu exemplified joy in the face of oppression.Joy can coexist with sorrow and is rooted in reality.Repentance is about awakening to one's true self.Joy is a revolutionary force that cannot be governed.The fire of God is illuminating and cleansing, not punitive.Joy invites us to new beginnings and deeper connections.Meditating on joy can help us connect with our true selves. SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    41 min
  5. 147: Tom Rundel: Toxic Positivity Vs Hope

    12/03/2025

    147: Tom Rundel: Toxic Positivity Vs Hope

    In this episode, Tom Rundel explores the concept of hope versus toxic positivity, particularly within the context of Advent and the Christian faith. He discusses how hope is often misunderstood as mere optimism or positivity, and instead argues that true hope involves acknowledging reality and potential, even in the face of despair. Rundel shares personal insights and experiences, emphasizing the importance of co-authoring a better future with God, rather than relying on clichéd narratives. Takeaways The majority of our life is lived in liminal space.Hope is not a denial of reality but an awareness of it.Toxic positivity replaces reality with comforting narratives.True hope involves acknowledging both reality and potential.Bad theology insulates us from reality.Hope is born when the human spirit confronts despair.We are participants in God's unfolding future.Hope requires co-authoring a better future with God.Clichés are not true theology but can be comforting.Hope travels through despair to reach the other side. SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    44 min
  6. 146: Tom Rundel: God is Not an Idea

    11/26/2025

    146: Tom Rundel: God is Not an Idea

    In this episode, Tom Rundel explores the meaning of Christ the King Sunday, the conclusion of the liturgical year, and uses Psalm 46 to challenge the common Western tendency to treat God as a mere idea rather than an embodied reality. Rundel unpacks the Psalmist’s imagery—refuge, river, stillness—to point listeners toward a faith that is lived, practiced, and experienced in the body, not simply thought in the mind. He contrasts the biblical embodied pathway of spiritual trust with the modern habit of “spiritual bypassing,” urging listeners to regulate their nervous systems not with ideas but with grounding practices, presence, and embodied trust. In a world that feels like it is shaking, this episode reframes stillness as a revolutionary act of faith.  Key Takeaway Moments  Liturgical time shapes us: The liturgical calendar exists to form us, not to reflect our preferences or current news cycles. Christ the King Sunday was created to resist nationalism:  Pope Pius XI introduced it in 1925 in response to rising secularism, nationalism, and authoritarianism after World War I.  Psalm 46 is embodied, not abstract: God as refuge is comparable to a life-saving oasis in an actual desert—not an inspirational concept but a physical experience.  Ideas alone cannot calm the nervous system: Overthinking spiritual truths cannot regulate fear, anxiety, or overwhelm; we need embodied practices.  God is encountered in the physical world: Walks in nature, shared meals, prayer, meditation, therapy, community, and rhythms of grounding connect us with divine presence.  Be still = “Stop it”: The Hebrew phrase carries the tone of a sharp interruption—God breaking into human anxiety, war, and inner conflict. Your identity is not your performance: We must detach our self-worth from opinions, productivity, and inner narratives.  Divine life flows through reality like a river: God is woven into creation’s fabric, inviting us into steady presence rather than frantic striving.  Stillness is not passivity but resistance: Trust is an active response that disrupts fear, violence, and domination—within society and within ourselves.  Chapter Breakdown  1. The Liturgical Year and Christ the King Sunday Tom explains how the liturgical calendar shapes Christian reflection and why Christ the King Sunday was added in 1925 as a response to nationalism and authoritarianism.  2. Introducing Psalm 46 He situates the Psalm as an ancient song meant to be sung, full of poetic imagery that speaks to a trembling world.  3. God as Refuge — More Than an Idea Tom describes the wilderness of the Sinai Peninsula and the oasis at En Gedi to illustrate that God as “refuge” was originally a lived survival experience, not an abstract thought.  4. Ideas vs. Embodied Faith He critiques Western Christianity’s tendency to reduce faith to thoughts, arguing that nervous systems cannot be soothed by ideas alone.  5. Experiencing God Through the Body Tom highlights spiritual grounding practices—walks, rest, prayer, therapy, worship—as places where divine presence is actually encountered.  6. The River of God Using imagery from ancient Egypt and Jerusalem, he shows how rivers symbolized life, stability, and divine presence in the midst of chaos.  7. “Be Still” as a Divine Intervention Tom reframes “be still and know” as God forcefully stopping human violence and inner chaos—less gentle contemplation, more “stop it.”  8. The Inner War He identifies the internal battles of self-worth, anxiety, and fear, urging listeners to stop fueling the war through performance and self-criticism.  9. God Woven Into Reality He quotes Ilya Delio and others to describe divine life as flowing through the cosmos; faith becomes an embodied way of being.  10. Reflection & Practice Tom offers reflection questions and a spiritual practice for the week, ending with a poem titled Still Here by Paul A. Jones. SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    42 min
  7. 145: Bruce Epperly: Process, Peace, and the Planet. Healing the World

    11/19/2025

    145: Bruce Epperly: Process, Peace, and the Planet. Healing the World

    In this episode of Liminal Living, Tom Rundel welcomes theologian and author Bruce Epperly back for his third appearance to discuss his new book, Healing the World: Whitehead, Francis, Clare, and Bonaventure on Spiritual and Planetary Transformation. Their conversation flows through themes of hope, mysticism, process theology, and spiritual imagination in a world in need of healing. They explore how Francis of Assisi, Clare, and Bonaventure embodied a spirituality of simplicity and interconnection that can inspire today’s efforts toward peace, ecological care, and compassionate living. Bruce also shares insights from Alfred North Whitehead’s process philosophy, drawing connections between divine immanence and the living presence of God within creation. From stories of pilgrimage in Ireland to reflections on hope amid political despair, the conversation invites listeners to see each moment as sacred, each small act as part of healing the moral and spiritual fabric of the world. Chapters Pilgrimage and Peace in Ireland – Bruce recounts his trip with Gareth Higgins and Diana Butler Bass, exploring lessons from Northern Ireland’s peacemaking for today’s polarized world.Hope Beyond Despair – Discussing the moral arc of history, Jeremiah’s field, and faith in uncertain times.The Inspiration for Healing the World – How synchronicity, Whitehead, and Francis converged in Bruce’s creative and theological journey.Francis, Clare, and Bonaventure – Mini-biographies and their radical simplicity, feminism, philosophy, and spiritual clarity.Process Theology and Mysticism – The union of Whitehead’s philosophy with Franciscan spirituality; God as immanent, relational, and present in all things.Reimagining Prayer and Presence – Tom shares a personal story about reframing prayer and blessing through a process-oriented, Celtic lens.Healing vs. Curing the World – Bruce’s distinction between transformation and domination; hope through faithful small acts.The Song That Cannot Be Taken Away – Francis’s joy on his deathbed and the spiritual defiance of singing amid darkness.Prophetic Healing and Hope – Speaking truth with compassion, judgment as healing, and love as resistance. Invitation to Participate – Bruce encourages listeners to join the movement of healing through group study, contemplation, and daily acts of love. Takeaways Hope is active—it’s “buying a field” for a future you may never see.Healing begins in small acts; the world changes one moment at a time.Francis and Clare broke boundaries between rich and poor, male and female, human and non-human.God is not distant or supernatural but interwoven through all of creation.Prayer is not about summoning God but awakening awareness of divine presence already within the moment.True spirituality bridges barriers—between people, faiths, and even species.Prophetic healing names injustice while seeking reconciliation, not destruction.Music and joy are sacred resistance against fear and despair.Each person contributes to the ongoing creation through small faithful actions aligned with love.Links web: https://www.drbruceepperly.com/ Book: Healing the World: Whitehead, Francis, Clare, Bonaventure   SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    1h 5m
  8. 144: Kathy Khang: You Made it Weird, When Faith Divorces from Life

    11/12/2025

    144: Kathy Khang: You Made it Weird, When Faith Divorces from Life

    In this engaging conversation, Tom Rundel and Kathy Khang explore the complexities of faith, deconstruction, and the journey towards reimagining spirituality in a modern context. They discuss the importance of love, community, and the challenges of navigating conversations with differing perspectives. Kathy shares her insights on embodied theology, the significance of human connection, and the need for authenticity in faith practices. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of acknowledging past mistakes, trusting one's voice, and finding magic in everyday moments, ultimately advocating for a more compassionate and human-centered approach to spirituality. takeaways Kathy emphasizes the importance of love in understanding God.Navigating tensions between love and anger is crucial in today's world.Conversations with differing perspectives require discernment and good faith.Embodied theology connects faith with physical experiences.Authenticity in faith practices is a challenge for many.Human connection is vital in moments of grief and loss.Language shapes our faith and community interactions.Trusting our voices requires acknowledging past mistakes.Making peace with our past is essential for growth.Finding magic in everyday moments enriches our spiritual journey.Chapters 00:00 Welcome Back and Coffee Conversations03:03 Deconstructing Faith and Reimagining God06:01 Living in Tension: Love and Anger09:10 Navigating Conversations with Different Perspectives11:50 Embodied Theology: Experiencing God in the Physical World15:02 Reconnecting with Humanity and Faith17:58 The Challenge of Authenticity in Faith20:49 Human Connection in Grief and Loss23:59 The Role of Language in Faith and Community27:03 Trusting Our Voices in a Changing Landscape30:14 Making Peace with Our Past33:01The Journey of Transformation and Mistakes36:01 Finding Magic in Everyday Moments38:57 The Power of Presence and Community41:47 Navigating the Complexity of Faith and Identity45:02 Final Thoughts on Faith and HumanityLinks: Kathy's Books {Click Here] web: http://www.kathykhang.com/ SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off) Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off)  Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)   ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminalliving Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0ow Follow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

    1h 6m
5
out of 5
19 Ratings

About

Welcome to the Liminal Living Podcast, where we dive deep into the realm of liminal spaces—those transitional phases where uncertainty is our companion. I'm your host and curator of conversations, Dr. Tom Rundel, and it's my pleasure to serve as your guide through these uncharted territories. With a doctoral background in spirituality and leadership from Portland Seminary, my research has centered on the spirituality found in the narratives of liminality in the Bible, but I have expanded my research to include other faith traditions and cognitive science. Since our launch in 2023, we've been dedicated to exploring the nuances of dark nights and deconstructions, but our journey expanded to include insights from a diverse array of modern-day thinkers and artists. Through a blend of stories, practices, and perspectives, we provide valuable guidance for fellow travelers navigating their own liminal spaces. So, join us as we embark on this journey and embrace the uncertainty in order to uncover the hidden wisdom that lies within the liminal spaces of life.

You Might Also Like