Waking Up to Narcissism

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"Waking Up to Narcissism" is a podcast hosted by Tony Overbay, LMFT, host of the award-winning Virtual Couch podcast, dedicated to helping individuals recognize and navigate narcissistic traits and tendencies in their relationships and within themselves. With a focus on emotional immaturity versus narcissism, Tony provides tools and guidance for personal growth and managing relationships with narcissistic or emotionally immature individuals, even if that individual is you!

  1. 2D AGO

    Validation, Co-regulation, and Emotional Immaturity (with a Hint of Spirituality) w/Angela De Hoyos, ALC

    What happens when your greatest strengths—your empathy, your willingness to self-reflect, your sensitivity—become the very tools someone uses to convince you everything is your fault? In this crossover episode with therapist Angela De Hoyos, ALC, Tony explores why validation feels like survival when you were raised in an emotionally unpredictable home. You learned that love could vanish without warning—so you became hypervigilant, endlessly working to secure connection that was never yours to earn. Now you may find yourself starving for validation from the one person who can't hold it steadily. You can learn more about Angela by visiting her website https://www.findingbalancecounseling.com/ and subscribe to her podcast “Finding Balance with Mental Health and Spirituality” here https://www.findingbalancecounseling.com/podcast EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: Understand the origins of validation: why we learn we exist through others' responses—and how that wiring gets exploited Discover why "pathologically kind" people attract emotionally immature partners—and keep trying harder when it doesn't work Recognize the trap of "if it's my fault, I can fix it"—and why that belief keeps you chasing validation instead of building self-trust Learn the crucial difference between validation and agreement—you can acknowledge someone's experience without abandoning your own Build a 90% solid sense of self so you stop outsourcing your worth to people who use it against you 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 01:25 Guest Introduction: Angela de Hoyos 03:16 The Magnetic Marriage Course Pitch 06:20 Understanding Validation and Emotional Immaturity 08:15 Therapeutic Insights and Parenting Dynamics 20:46 The Concept of Co-Regulation 28:40 Exploring the Concept of Existence and Value 29:05 The Story of Jill: Unpredictable Childhood 30:33 Understanding Validation and Recognition 33:50 The Role of Self-Validation 40:59 Spiritual Perspectives on Validation 51:25 Final Thoughts and Reflections Get on the waitlist today for Tony's upcoming Magnetic Marriage live course! Head to https://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic If you are interested in joining Tony's private Facebook group for women in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships of any type, please reach out to him at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP://www.tonyoverbay.com If you are a man interested in joining Tony's "Emotional Architects" group to learn how to better navigate your relationship with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner or learn how to become more emotionally mature yourself, please reach out to Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP:www.tonyoverbay.com

    53 min

  2. FEB 4

    Flying Monkeys, Switzerland Friends & Narcissists, Oh My! Understanding Secondary Betrayal

    Why do the people you thought knew you best stay silent—or worse, side with the person who hurt you? This secondary betrayal often cuts deeper than the narcissistic behavior itself. Switzerland friends insist on neutrality while your pain makes them uncomfortable. Flying monkeys carry your vulnerability straight back to your abuser. When you finally name what's happening and the people closest to you rush to minimize or report back, your nervous system doesn't just register disappointment—it registers danger. Tony walks through why "I don't want to take sides" isn't actually neutral, how flying monkeys weaponize your words, and the exhausting ping-pong match of trying to be understood by people who need not to understand you in order to feel safe themselves. In this episode, you'll learn: The critical difference between Switzerland friends (who neutralize) and flying monkeys (who expose)—and why both leave you questioning reality How narcissistic systems hijack co-regulation, making everyone responsible for stabilizing the most emotionally immature person in the room Why your body's response after sharing something vulnerable is better data than the words exchanged The five ways narcissists regulate their nervous systems through you: superiority, victimhood, being right, being admired, and being defended How to stop "auditioning for belief" and start choosing relationships that can actually hold emotional weight Drawing from over 20 years of couples therapy and thousands of real conversations, Tony offers a framework for recognizing when explanation has replaced connection—and why the most regulated thing you can say is simply, "I know what I experienced." Ready to stop offering your nervous system as a resource to people who won't protect it? Subscribe and share this episode with someone who needs to hear they're not crazy—they're waking up. 00:00 Introduction and Gratitude 00:37 Sales Pitch: Magnetic Marriage Course 05:37 Understanding Narcissistic Relationships 06:46 The Pain of Secondary Betrayal 07:44 Navigating Anger and Injustice 15:04 Switzerland Friends and Emotional Avoidance 22:03 Story Time: Ned, Steve, and Fran 30:01 Avoiding Accountability and Ownership 30:17 The Role of Flying Monkeys 30:32 Switzerland Friends vs. Flying Monkeys 30:57 Emotional Honesty in Unsafe Systems 31:17 The Futility of Over-Explaining 34:02 Adjusting Expectations and Setting Boundaries 34:42 Understanding and Managing Anger 35:28 Withdrawing the Need for Permission 36:23 Grieving What Won't Change 37:14 Recognizing Emotionally Safe Relationships 39:13 The Concept of Co-Regulation 39:55 Narcissistic Systems and Emotional Regulation 45:43 Interacting with Switzerland Friends and Flying Monkeys 54:46 Choosing Relationships That Hold Emotional Weight 55:41 Final Thoughts and Encouragement Get on the waitlist today for Tony's upcoming Magnetic Marriage live course! Head to https://tonyoverbay.com/magnetic If you are interested in joining Tony's private Facebook group for women in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships of any type, please reach out to him at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP://www.tonyoverbay.com If you are a man interested in joining Tony's "Emotional Architects" group to learn how to better navigate your relationship with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner or learn how to become more emotionally mature yourself, please reach out to Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com or through the form on the website, HTTP:www.tonyoverbay.com

    58 min

  3. JAN 21

    Narcissistic Off Switch: When Naming It Makes It Worse

    Can you "turn off" a narcissist with one calm sentence? Tony unpacks the viral "narcissistic off switch" concept and discovers why tactics alone won't save you—but they might be exactly where real transformation begins. After stumbling upon behavioral expert Chase Hughes' framework for disarming manipulation using FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt), Tony initially resisted the idea. It felt too simple. But when he traced the concept back to its source, something shifted. The off switch isn't about changing them—it's about stopping the erosion of you. Through raw client stories and David Schnarch's differentiation work, Tony reveals why awareness doesn't land as insight to the emotionally immature—it lands as exposure. And exposure is a threat. What you'll learn: Recognize when FOG and CAVA (Control, Approval, Validation, Attention) are being used against you Understand why naming manipulation often backfires in deeply bonded relationships Apply Schnarch's four points of balance to stay grounded during accusations Stop defending a "reflected sense of self" and start building one that's truly yours Embrace outcome independence—saying your truth without needing their agreement Drawing from 20+ years as a marriage and family therapist specializing in emotionally immature dynamics, Tony bridges tactical awareness with the deeper work of differentiation. 00:00 Introduction and Social Media Plugs 01:11 The Lost Episode: Narcissistic Off Switch 05:27 Chase Hughes and the Concept of Prediction 16:11 Understanding Manipulation: FOG and KAVA 18:33 Real-Life Examples: Navigating Emotional Manipulation 28:46 Understanding Unhealthy Responses 29:24 The Power of Differentiated Response 30:18 Challenges in Relationships 30:42 Contrasting Views on Manipulation 32:09 Real-Life Examples of Manipulation 37:22 The Concept of Differentiation 43:35 Projection and Emotional Immaturity 46:50 The Four Points of Balance 50:53 Gridlock and Constructing Your Crucible 54:22 Final Thoughts on Emotional Autonomy Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group. And visit https://julie-dejesus.com/cruise to learn more about Tony and his friend Julie De Jesus's "I See You Living" cruise, a 5-night Western Caribbean Cruise from January 24-29, 2026 aboard the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line. To learn more about Tony's upcoming re-release of the Magnetic Marriage course, his Pathback Recovery course, and more, sign up for his newsletter through the link at https://linktr.ee/virtualcouch Available NOW: Tony's "Magnetic Marriage Mini-Course" is only $25. https://magneticmarriage.mykajabi.com/magnetic-marriage-mini-course You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program, The Path Back, by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com

    57 min

  4. 12/11/2025

    The Family Butterfly Effect: How Your Uncle Ray Changed Everything—And How You Can Change It Back

    What do you do when someone in your family needs drama to feel alive? In this crossover episode, Tony dives deep into the anatomy of emotional immaturity through the story of "Uncle Ray"—a family member whose constant need for conflict, grievance, and the "one-up position" sent shockwaves through an entire family system. Tony breaks down the key patterns of emotional immaturity you'll recognize: black-and-white thinking, assumed intent without curiosity, difficulty with accountability, emotional reasoning ("I feel it, so it must be true"), external validation dependence, magical thinking, and the exhausting game of "whack-a-mole" that comes with trying to have a conversation with someone who's looking for attack surfaces rather than connection. You'll also learn about "pathological kindness"—the breakup-resistant dynamic that keeps enablers locked in relationships with emotionally immature people—and how these patterns get passed down through generations. Tony traces Uncle Ray's patterns back to his mother's divorce and the emotional template that shaped him, showing how one grandmother's pain rippled forward into holiday traditions lost and family relationships fractured. If you have an Uncle Ray in your life, this episode offers clarity: you can't change them, but you can set boundaries, refuse triangulation, grieve the family you wished you had, and become the catalyst for a different kind of ripple in your own family system. 00:00 Introduction: Family Dynamics and Roles 01:05 The Butterfly Effect in Families 03:02 Crossover Episode: Emotional Immaturity and Family Systems 04:36 The Butterfly Effect: Scientific Examples 10:02 The Butterfly Effect in Family Systems 14:33 Uncle Ray: The Catalyst of Chaos 23:25 Pathological Kindness: Janet's Role 27:39 Emotional Immaturity: Patterns and Consequences 33:10 Black and White Thinking 33:40 Mind Reading and Assumed Intent 34:28 Difficulty with Accountability 35:39 Emotional Reasoning 36:35 External Validation Dependence 37:58 Magical Thinking 39:03 Managing Other People's Emotions 40:40 The Butterfly Effect in Family Dynamics 41:15 Curiosity and Emotional Maturity 43:28 Reconnecting with Uncle Dave 51:30 The Impact of Family Systems 55:55 The Cost of Emotional Immaturity 58:25 Breaking the Cycle 58:45 Setting Boundaries and Responding Differently 01:02:38 Hope and Creating Positive Ripples Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group. And visit https://julie-dejesus.com/cruise to learn more about Tony and his friend Julie De Jesus's "I See You Living" cruise, a 5-night Western Caribbean Cruise from January 24-29, 2026 aboard the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line.

    1h 5m

  5. 12/02/2025

    Narcissistic Collapse: Why Their Breakdown Is Actually Your Breakthrough

    Is there such a thing as a "narcissistic collapse" — or is it just another trend designed to keep you scrolling at 2 AM looking for answers to why your relationship is the number one source of your frustration? Tony answers an email from a listener who keeps seeing videos promising that 2025 will be "the year of the narcissistic collapse"—the moment when the mask finally falls off, and everyone sees the truth. Cosmic justice would finally be served, and he would immediately feel a sense of relief, and either his partner would now become the person he’d always dreamed of, or he would undoubtedly find his soulmate within minutes after the collapse. And they would ride off into the sunset together. Tony breaks down the email line by line and unpacks everything from emotional immaturity and projection, the danger of couples therapy with the narcissist, to the continuing trap of trying to give your partner an epiphany. But the real conversation is about what narcissistic collapse actually is — and more importantly, what it isn't. Here's what the internet won't tell you: A narcissistic collapse isn't a sign of their progress. It's a sign of yours. They're not collapsing because they've changed. They're collapsing because you have — and the system that kept them emotionally afloat is breaking down. In this episode, you'll learn: - Why asking "Am I the narcissist?" almost always means you're not - The difference between reactive abuse and actual instability — and why therapists often get it wrong - How your vulnerability becomes an "attack surface" in emotionally immature relationships - What the research actually says about narcissistic injury, decompensation, and collapse - Why your growth equals their loss of control — and your calm equals their panic - David Schnarch’s theory on differentiation, and his Four Points of Balance that make real change possible - How to stop selling yourself on a destination of hope and start building the vehicle that will truly take you where you need to go If you've ever scrolled through narcissism content at 2 AM looking for answers, this one's for you. 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 00:38 Listener Email: A Muse for Self-Discovery 01:00 Defining a Muse in Everyday Life 01:55 Listener's Struggle: Emotional Immaturity and Narcissism 02:28 The Narcissistic Collapse: Fact or Fiction? 02:51 Listener's Background and Marriage Issues 03:30 Therapy and Self-Doubt 03:51 Emotional Immaturity's Impact on Vulnerability 04:06 The Epiphany Trap and Anxious Attachment 04:35 Couples Therapy Pitfalls 05:18 The Role of Social Media in Coping 19:45 Reactive Abuse and Emotional Safety 28:01 The 5-4-3-2-1 Countdown Technique 29:09 Understanding Narcissistic Collapse 30:08 The Origin and Impact of Narcissistic Injury 30:39 The Role of Boundaries in Narcissistic Collapse 31:21 Emotional Immaturity and Defensive Structures 36:13 The Process of Differentiation 37:51 The Importance of Self-Validation 38:26 The Narcissistic Collapse as a Sign of Your Progress 44:10 Selling the Destination vs. Building the Vehicle 47:12 The Reality of Transformation and Healing 52:10 Final Thoughts and Encouragement Women navigating emotionally immature relationships: come join Tony’s private women’s Facebook group. Men beginning your own emotional maturity journey: check out the Men’s Emotional Architects group. Links in the show notes. Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group. And visit https://julie-dejesus.com/cruise to learn more about Tony and his friend Julie De Jesus's "I See You Living" cruise, a 5-night Western Caribbean Cruise from January 24-29, 2026 aboard the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line.

    54 min

  6. 11/18/2025

    Death by 1,000 Cuts X: The Ten Emotional Commandments (You’re Most Likely Still Breaking)

    If you’ve ever been in a relationship with emotional immaturity or narcissistic behavior, you know the truth: Healing doesn’t come with a map. Emotional safety doesn’t come with instructions. And waking up is rarely a straight line. In this 10th “Death by 1,000 Cuts” episode, Tony introduces The Ten Emotional Commandments — the patterns, boundaries, and insights that so many people wish they had years earlier. These commandments aren’t rules you obey; they’re survival skills you learn. They’re the shifts that help you understand your emotions, trust your gut, stop overexplaining, and finally step out of the chaos you didn’t choose. This episode is validating, grounding, sometimes funny, sometimes painful — and deeply relatable. With listener-submitted “cuts,” real-world examples, and a gentle breakdown of what healing actually looks like, Tony helps you recognize the patterns AND understand how to break them. If you’ve felt alone in your confusion, in your exhaustion, or in the emotional whiplash of trying to make sense of someone else’s immaturity — this episode is for you. 00:00 Introduction and Series Overview 00:37 The Power of Your Stories 01:20 A Survivor's Poem 04:42 The 10 Emotional Commandments 08:54 Commandment 1: Raise Your Emotional Baseline 15:59 Commandment 2: Get Your PhD in Gaslighting 21:53 Commandment 3: Drop the Rope of Emotional Tug of War 27:33 Commandment 4: Set Boundaries and Mean Them 32:17 Stop Searching for the Perfect Words 33:01 Examples of False Promises and Manipulation 33:52 Understanding Emotional Immaturity 36:41 Limiting Your Attack Surface 40:13 Recognizing Projection 44:45 Honoring Your Inner Dialogue 48:37 Trusting Your Gut and Emotions 53:07 Change is Not Linear 57:51 Final Thoughts and Resources Women navigating emotionally immature relationships: come join Tony’s private women’s Facebook group. Men beginning your own emotional maturity journey: check out the Men’s Emotional Architects group. Links in the show notes. Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group. And visit https://julie-dejesus.com/cruise to learn more about Tony and his friend Julie De Jesus's "I See You Living" cruise, a 5-night Western Caribbean Cruise from January 24-29, 2026 aboard the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line.

    1h 2m

  7. 11/03/2025

    "I Never Said That!" - When Your Memory Becomes the Enemy

    Have you ever remembered something so vividly that it feels etched into your bones — only to have someone look at you blankly and say, “That never happened”? Have you ever started to wonder if maybe you’re the one who’s losing your mind? If so, you know the disorienting pain of questioning your own reality. In this episode, Tony Overbay, LMFT, unpacks what happens when your memory becomes the battleground in a relationship with an emotionally immature or narcissistic partner. When every disagreement seems to rewrite history, your sense of truth can start to unravel — not because you’re broken, but because your brain and body have been conditioned to survive confusion. Tony explores how: Cognitive dissonance makes you doubt what you know is true Gaslighting and confabulation distort shared reality The false self uses denial to avoid shame Chronic emotional stress rewires your nervous system and memory Tools like gray rocking and self-regulation help you reclaim peace Through clinical examples, evidence-based research, and hope, this episode reveals how to rebuild trust in your own perception — and why remembering that you were there is the first step toward healing. Because waking up isn’t about convincing anyone else what happened, it’s about remembering: you were right to trust yourself all along. 00:00 Introduction: The Fallibility of Memory 00:58 Healthy vs. Unhealthy Relationships 02:15 The Reality Police: Types of Memory Issues 03:14 Emotional Immaturity and Narcissism 04:12 The Impact of Chronic Invalidation 05:33 Welcome to Waking Up to Narcissism 07:00 Pam and Jim: A Story of Emotional Distortion 11:38 Cognitive Dissonance and Emotional Survival 21:06 Understanding Gaslighting 24:33 A Heartbreaking Misunderstanding 25:58 The Power of Gaslighting 26:13 Confabulation: Filling Memory Gaps 27:08 The Patchwork Quilt of Self-Image 28:18 The Cost of Emotional Immaturity 32:25 Interpersonal Neurobiology and Co-Regulation 35:37 The Impact of Chronic Stress 37:15 Rewiring Your Brain for Peace 45:29 Gray Rocking: A Strategy for Self-Protection 48:20 Reclaiming Your Sense of Calm Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group. And visit https://julie-dejesus.com/cruise to learn more about Tony and his friend Julie De Jesus's "I See You Living" cruise, a 5-night Western Caribbean Cruise from January 24-29, 2026 aboard the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line. To learn more about Tony's upcoming re-release of the Magnetic Marriage course, his Pathback Recovery course, and more, sign up for his newsletter through the link at https://linktr.ee/virtualcouch Available NOW: Tony's "Magnetic Marriage Mini-Course" is only $25. https://magneticmarriage.mykajabi.com/magnetic-marriage-mini-course You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program, The Path Back, by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com

    51 min

  8. 10/03/2025

    Stop Trying to Explain Yourself to the Narcissist: Why Explanations Make Things Worse

    Do you ever feel like no matter how much you explain yourself, your words just get turned against you? In this episode of Waking Up to Narcissism, Tony Overbay, LMFT, breaks down why explanations don’t lead to understanding with a narcissist—or with anyone who is deeply emotionally immature. Instead, they become what Tony calls an “attack surface”: the very fuel that allows the narcissist to twist, criticize, or position themselves as the victim. Through a painfully familiar story of a wife trying to share her day and a husband who withdraws into silence, Tony unpacks: Why silence is a weapon for the narcissist—and why it spikes anxiety for the pathologically kind partner How emotionally immature people thrive on friction and conflict rather than true connection The cycle of narcissistic supply (idealization, devaluation, and discard) and how it shows up in daily interactions The difference between secure attachment and antagonistic attachment Five rules for protecting yourself and reducing “attack surfaces” in conversations If you’ve ever found yourself over-explaining, apologizing for things that weren’t your fault, or walking on eggshells to avoid conflict, this episode will help you recognize the patterns, reclaim your emotional energy, and begin to shift the dynamic. Your kindness is a gift—but when explanations only make things worse, it’s time to understand why. 00:00 Introduction and Acknowledgements 00:52 Understanding Substack and Blogging 02:11 Disclaimer and Episode Overview 02:47 Narcissism in Relationships 07:25 The Real-Life Story Begins 11:39 Analyzing the Narcissistic Behavior 19:13 Secure Attachment vs. Narcissistic Attachment 25:58 The Concept of Attack Surface 35:18 The Silent Treatment: A Narcissist's Weapon 35:51 The Parasitic Dynamic in Narcissistic Relationships 39:20 The Narcissistic Supply Cycle 43:51 Codependency and Pathological Kindness 51:41 Strategies for Dealing with Narcissists 56:05 Breaking the Cycle: Reclaiming Your Power 01:01:32 The Importance of Documentation 01:07:57 Key Takeaways and Final Thoughts Contact Tony at contact@tonyoverbay.com to learn more about his Emotional Architects men's group. And visit https://julie-dejesus.com/cruise to learn more about Tony and his friend Julie De Jesus's "I See You Living" cruise, a 5-night Western Caribbean Cruise from January 24-29, 2026 aboard the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line. To learn more about Tony's upcoming re-release of the Magnetic Marriage course, his Pathback Recovery course, and more, sign up for his newsletter through the link at https://linktr.ee/virtualcouch Available NOW: Tony's "Magnetic Marriage Mini-Course" is only $25. https://magneticmarriage.mykajabi.com/magnetic-marriage-mini-course You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program, The Path Back, by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com

    1h 14m
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About

"Waking Up to Narcissism" is a podcast hosted by Tony Overbay, LMFT, host of the award-winning Virtual Couch podcast, dedicated to helping individuals recognize and navigate narcissistic traits and tendencies in their relationships and within themselves. With a focus on emotional immaturity versus narcissism, Tony provides tools and guidance for personal growth and managing relationships with narcissistic or emotionally immature individuals, even if that individual is you!

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